Mark's Custom 6-string Bass

[mica]

Binding is not our first choice either, and you'll notice most of them don't include it. Our batting average is really good on this matter.
 
On rare occassions, the fit isn't as good as we like, and the binding is added. Of course, it's also done at the customer's request.  
 
In any event, you'll know as soon as the plates are made (that means after the plywood is assembled) how well the fit is.

[the_8_string_king]

It recently occured to me that the Omega cutout must affect the reach of the lower notes... the 1st and 2cnd fret, in particular, y'know...
 
Now, I'm totally sold on the aesthetics and functionality of the Balance K body in general, and of the Omega cutout variant in particular.
 
But... part of the concept of THIS bass is to contrast 8 Strings of Power by being a smaller, lighter, and easier-to-play bass.  I don't want to have to reach farther than I do on my 8-String for the low notes.
 
My 8-string Europa is a 35 inch scale instrument, as you know; and the tailpiece is close to the edge of the instrument; now since this 6-String will be a 34 inch scale, that should give me an inch less reach; but then the Omega cutout would seem to make it longer... to stretch the 1st fret even farther away from me.
 
Is this so?  Or am I missing something?  I'm wondering if maybe I should switch to the point (which I'd probably either have shaved down or altogether off).  I REALLY love the Omega on the Balance K... it's a large part of what's sold me on the shape/bodystyle.  Without the Omega, I'm not sure if I like the Balance K Point any better than the Europa -which I love.  (But I definitely love it a little more WITH the Omega.)
 
I want this bass to be about function more than form; if it comes down to an either/or, I'll go with function and sacrifice the Omega... or maybe go with a Europa body if that would still be an option.
 
What are your thoughts on this?  I'll defer to your expertise... but so you Alembic Doctors can give the best diagnosis, again, my concern is that I want the 1st fret to be easier to reach/play than it is on my 8-String Europa.
 
What should I do?  Would the 34 inch Balance K Omegas' 1st fret be harder/the same/easier to reach/play as my 1st fret on the Europa.
 
My intuition is that the Point variation would require less reach, as the tailpiece would presumably be mounted right near the edge of the bass (whereas this is not possible on the Omega variation -due to the absence of wood/Omega cutout displacing the tailpiece and pushing the fingerboard/lower frets further out).
 
What's the scoop, Doc(s)?

[mica]

Normal placement for the upper horn reach is between 14-15th fret on the Europa and between 13-14th fret on the Balance K, so they are very similar.  
 
While a bass with a point can have the tailpiece mounted closer to the bottom of the bass, it usually isn't because it would interfere with upper fret access without modifications to the lower body half. Here's an example of a Balance K with a point carving, so you can see where the tailpiece falls.
 
Eliminating the point will reduce the weight some.

[the_8_string_king]

So (forgive me if I'm dense/slow) the Point and Omega variants BOTH have the same bridge/tailpiece placement?  It seems that is what you're saying, and the picture you provided -as well as the Dragonfly bass in FTC- make it look like it IS in the same position.
 
So, then, how would the reach required to access the 1st fret of my 34 inch Balance K Omega compare to the reach required to reach the 1st fret of a standard long scale 34 inch Europa?  Would it require MORE reach, about the SAME, or LESS REACH?  As long as the reach required to access the 1st fret is equal or less to that of a standard 34 inch scale Europa (which would logically be less than my 35 inch scale Europa) then I want to stick with the plan... with the Balance K Omega variation I've spec'd.  If for some reason, the reach is greater, than I might want to talk to you about switching to a Point or Europa and/or burying the fingerboard as clubmember Tom mentioned you did for his ET bass.
 
Please clarify at your convenience whether the reach required to access the 1st fret on a 34 inch Balance K Omega is more or the same or less than that of a 34 inch Europa.  If it's equal or less, then I can just forget about it and kick back.  If it's more than I need to get your input to figure a way to make it equal or less, be it switching to a Europa, or to a Point, and adjusting the tailpiece placement!

[mica]

The carving variation of point, smooth, or omega on Standard, Balance K, Balance Point, 3/4, or Scorpion body shapes does not affect the position of the tailpiece.  
 
I think the two body shapes, Europa and Balance K would be very similar in the amount of reach to the first fret since the place where the strap connects on the horn is very similar to eachother - they are separated by one fret or less.  
 
Think of it this way - imagine the upper horn extended to the fifth fret. The reach to the first fret would be decreased. Now image the upper horn extends only to the 20th fret, the reach to the first fret would be increased. Does this help you visualize?

[the_8_string_king]

Ummm... well, I already got THAT.  Bassed on our previous discussions.  I get that the horn has slightly more reach. But it also seems like the body must be longer, and this must factor into the equation.  For example, if we'd put an omega in my 8-String Europa, it's obvious this would require pushing the tailpiece and bridge in (and therefore pushing the fingerboard out, and increasing the reach necessary to reach the first fret).  But then again, maybe I'm wrong, and the Balance K body isn't longer... maybe it's shorter... I don't know!
 
Anyway, I don't want to be a pain... but I was hoping for a little more than your statement that the reach is very similar.
 
I'm switching down from the 35 inch scale to the 34 inch scale so I'll have (a little) less reach.  So, of course... I want to have (a little) less reach.  So I just want to confirm.  It would REALLY be a drag if I got this bass, and the reach required for 1st fret access was equal or (even worse) GREATER than (with) my 8-String.
 
I'm hoping you can give me a definitive answer on this.  Hopefully/maybe -if no one already just knows and can say- y'all have a 34 inch Europa and a 34 inch Balance K that a person or two could play real quick, to compare.  But if not, I could ask club members, or maybe Beaver.  Surely there are a couple club members who have both a Balance K and a Europa.
 
Bottom line: I really want to stick with the Balance K Omega... BUT this is based on the assumption that the reach needed to access the 1st fret would be at least a little less than what I have now on/for my 35 inch Europa.  It either is, or it isn't... and I don't know, so I'm hoping you do.
 
So long as the reach is less than my Europa's, than I'm 100% for the Balance K Omega; on the other hand, if the reach required to access the 1st fret on the Balance K is/would be equal or greater -than that of my 35 inch Europa, then I'd want to either switch to a Europa body or bury the fingerboard (move the peghead closer to the bridge) and/by sacrificing the Omega and moving the tailpiece near the end of the body.

[the_8_string_king]

I've asked for any clubmembers who know the answer to this question to share their knowledge with me, but thus far I've not got an answer; however, Bsee pointed out that we could extend the horn, if needed.
 
Personally, I'm hoping that the truth/reality is that the 1st fret access of the 34 inch Balance K is equal or less than that of the 34 inch Europa -because then it would logically have to be less than my 35 inch Europa.
 
If the reach is equal or less than a same-scale Europa, then everything is simple, and we can just proceed smoothly with the plan and just make a standard Balance K with dual BTC.
 
But if it turns out that reality/truth is that the 34 inch Balance K Omega requires MORE reach, then, in that case, I'd like to discuss options for extending the horn to reduce the reach.
 
I was thinking that, if necessary, you could bury the fingerboard, moved it in (towards the bridge) like you did for Tom's ET bass... but I'd have hated to sacrifice the Omega.  I'm hopeful now that the worst case scenario now would simply require a longer horn, which hopefully wouldn't be too difficult/costly.
 
I keep hoping to see a couple members respond and say, actually Mark, my 34 inch Balance K seems to require equal or less reach than that of my 34 inch Europa!  It would make things so easy if the standard setup just works!
 
So I'm crossing my fingers and toes that I'll hear those who know tell me that reality IS how I want it to be!
 
But if not, then I'll wanna talk horns!
 
Thanks Mica!
 
(Message edited by the 8 string king on January 02, 2007)

[the_8_string_king]

Hi Mica, and happy new year!
 
I started a thread over the weekend asking for any clubmembers who have both a 34 inch scale Europa and a 34 inch scale Balace K to answer the question of reach... but, unfortunately, I haven't got a definitive answer yet.  The ONLY thing I've heard so far is that you said they were very similar, and I think bsee/Bob said they're about the same.
 
I imagine that there must surely be someone -if not a couple someones- at the shop there who can answer this... what, with all the basses y'all make.  So I imagine I'll (hopefully) get an answer soon.
 
Ideally, the truth/answer is that the Balance K requires equal or less reach than a Europa of the same (34 inch) scale... in which case y'all can just plow ahead, since then it would by definition have to require less reach than my 35 inch scale Europa.  Then we can just stick with the plan, which I'd prefer, and I know that it's also preferable for Alembic to stick with specs rather than changing them.
 
But again, if there IS a reach issue, then I need your help/expertise/guidance to work out a solution.  A longer horn seems like the 1st option to consider -assuming there IS an issue (which then requires a solution).  It also hit me that I/we could reconsider the scale length, maybe change it back to the original 33 inch scale I'd first considered.  But again, at this point, I'd prefer to stick with the specified length of 34 -UNLESS we need to consider options to deal with the reach issue -assuming there is one.  I was initially very interested in this scale length, but conversations with Valention convinced me to switch the spec to 34 inch scale.  This was because I'd have to choose between using/finding medium scale strings... OR using long scale strings at (slightly) REDUCED TENSION (which seems really iffy/sketchy/dangerous to me), and I know Alembic only carries/stocks Alembic long scale sets (by the way, I wonder why that is... I'd figure since y'll have Alembic strings, you'd carry and sell long, medium, and short-scale sets).  So I just choose to scrap the 33 and go with the 34, to keep things simple.  As long as the reach required to get to the 1st fret is at least an inch less than on my 35 inch Europa, it will be satisfactory.  But is it is the question.
 
Anyway, at your convenience, please establish and convey to me whether the 34 inch Balance K requires MORE reach than a 34 inch Europa.  So long as is doesn't, then all is good, and can proceed according to plan.  On the other hand, if there is a reach issue, then I'd like to hear your thoughts/recommendations/options for extending the horn length, adjusting the scale, and/or any other ways of addressing the problem, if there is a problem (which hopefully there isn't!)
 
I'm certain that you're both busy, and as on top of this as your time and many responsibilites allow, so I'm going to abstain from calling you this week unless you indicate that there IS a problem/issue/concern regarding the reach. (In which case, it would be much better for me to communicate verbally.) (In lieu of that) I'll just rely on this FTC medium for communication.  I'm hoping you'll have the time to at least get me an answer on whether or not there is actually even an issue/concern in the first place -this week.  I'll cross my fingers and toes!
 
Thanks again for everything!
 
Mark
 
P.S. I'm still very interested in the neck width of the inner core, and reminder, I'm interested in the chambered/hollow... whatever you call it... construction.  I'm pretty sure I've already said it, but, just to make sure it's on-record, I do want that feature!  A large part of why I ended up going with the Mark King Deluxe package -with Coco Bolo on front and back- was based on your raves about Andy's Custom Europa, with the Coco Bolo front and back, sandwiching a hollow mahogany body!

[mica]

Hi Mark,  I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to get a definitive answer from anyone, including me. This is beacuse there are many variables, not the least of which is how you hold your bass.   As I've stated, I think that both the Balance K and Europa have very similar reaches. On Friday, I asked Valentino to model an Orion 5 (same body shape as Europa as far as straplocks are concerned) and a Balance K 5. Here's the photos with his reach to the first fret:  

 

  Now, these photos are not exactly taken from the same angle, but you can probably tell the reach is similar. Valentino noted that comparing these two particular basses, the first fret reach was a little closer on the Balance K to him.  I hope this visualization is helpful to you in making your decision.

[Bradley Young]

Valentino-- always mugging for the camera.  Hah!

[lidon2001]

He looks a bit more inspired on the BalK.  Must be the Ebony in the neck.

[the_8_string_king]

Mica & Val, thanks for taking the pictures.
 
Mica, I don't understand why, but accept that you feel no one's gonna provide me a definitive answer.  The question assumed all other things being equal.  Presumably the same person using the same strap holding each instrument the same way would find each model to require more or equal or less reach.
 
At any rate, I'm a little reassured that there are now 3 people (you, Bob, and Val) saying they're similar, and no voices saying (thus far) that the Balance K requires more reach.  Vals comment that the Balance K seemed to require less reach was the most encouraging comment.
 
Still, at this point, I'd like to formally ask about options & pricing for possibly slightly extending the horn.
 
Please ask Val or Susan about the pistol grip horn on Raging Bass.  How much extra is this, and how much longer is it?  Can you offer a simpler, less expensive longer-horn option?  (The pistol-grip looks a little fancy/pricy... I'm mainly interested in function... something to add just a little length... maybe an inch or so.)
 
I'm really torn on this; I was hoping for a definitive answer, but if such can not be provided, then it basically leaves me with one of 3 choices:
 
1. Extend the horn length a little -if it entails little to no additional labor/cost;
 
2. Just go with the standard Balance K and hope that it will be similar to a 34 inch Europa -and require less reach than my 35 inch Europa.
 
3. Switch to a 34 inch Europa body-which would be a guarenteed way of making sure it would require less reach than my 35 inch Europa.
 
Option 3 seems like the surest way to eliminate the reach concern; however, as much as I'd like to have another Europa, I'd still prefer the Balance K.
 
So I need to find out about extended horn options and prices, and I guess I'll have to then think about it a little.
 
Thanks again for everything!
 
Mark
 
By the way, that Balance K is unbelieveably stunning!  Burl Redwood?

[the_8_string_king]

And option 4: pay extra for pistol-grip or another extension, depending on how much!

[mica]

That's the thing, all other things aren't equal. The most important thing is how you hold the bass. It's not a given that you will hold two basses of different shapes the same way that let's say Valentino holds the same two basses. The best answer to the question is an educated guess, and that is they are very similar.  
 
I'm certain the pistol grip will be less expensive than a new custom body shape. Making the horn bigger means new plans. When Valentino is answering your other princing questions, he'll address the pistol grip as well, and that should help you decide on which of your 4 options to choose. He's usually here around 11:00 or so, so he'll be contacting you around 12:00 I suppose.  
 
And, yes, that Balance K is Burl Redwood. It's going to Will Gunn Guitars very soon. I agree, it's gorgeous.

[the_8_string_king]

I've been going over and over all the pictures, postings, and testimonials regarding the Balance K, and other things, to come to a decision ASAP -but the right decision.
 
Just to let you know, I'll be at work/out until probably after 6 pm today.
 
Didn't see any emails yet, but I'm becoming increasingly un-interested in altering the horn of going for the pistol grip.  But I'd still like the price for the extended grip/horn.
 
Thanks, Mark.