Mark's Custom 6-string Bass

[the_8_string_king]

Well, I know what I want.  For sure ?or at least as sure as I can be.  I?ve spent nearly every waking hour for the past several days dwelling on it, and looking over and over every post I could find on the site about the Balance K in Showcase, FTC, and the Custom Archives.  I?ve looked carefully through the comments and testimonials; I?ve also looked at Europas, and I?ve contemplated.  I?ve carefully considered numerous alternatives; I?ve considered pros & cons, and tradeoffs and risks; I?ve evaluated what I want detailwise, and how individual specific things fit into a hierarchy.  And I?ve figured it out.
 
I figured it out by process of elimination.  As much as I love the Europa shape ?and that?s quite a bit- I want something different from it.  I simply love the Balance K, and the only thing affecting that is the concern over reach.  I very seriously considered asking for a Rogue body; the Rogue was designed for a 35 inch scale, and has that extra long horn which I?ve been told gives it the best ?reach? of any Alembic body, so a 34 should definitely have to require significantly less reach than my 35 inch Europa.   But as I looked at Rogue after Rogue, I just concluded that the shape is not for me aesthetically.  The only reason I?d choose one is for function; and while I do appreciate the beauty and function of the form, it?s just doesn?t do it for me appearancewise, and I like it FAR less than the Balance K.
 
So I go back to the Balance K.  Now I think again about switching to the original 33 inch scale again; but the string tension is an issue.  Now, per Val?s recommendation, I attempted AGAIN to just? find information about Thomastik bass strings, ?cause supposedly the have great medium scale strings, so I thought, ?okay, despite the disadvantage of having to rely on very expensive & more complicated to get strings, if they?re reliable, it could just solve the problem.  Anyway, I spent WAY too much time trying to just find info on them and how to get them, and I just wasted time and gave myself a headache.  Their strings must be pretty good if people continue to buy them when someone who wants to has such a hard time doing it.  Whatever.  Suffice it to say, they?re ruled out.  So that brings me back to the 34.  I looked at the tailpiece? there?s very little additional room to move it closer than standard to the Omega, just a millimeter or two, nothing to be gained by asking you to move everything in a millimeter or two.
 
I thought about sacrificing the Omega, and have you bury the fingerboard, that is move the peghead closer to the tailpiece.  This was the best option so far.  Switch to the point, and move the neck in.  That way, I have less reach for sure.  But I?d have to sacrifice that Omega? and I really love the Omega.  I like the Point better than the Rogue; and about the same as the Europa, but it would score points for being different (than the Europa).
 
So it comes down to a contest between the Balance K Omega, and the Balance K point.  I looked at numerous Balance K Omegas, and 3 different point versions I could find? over and over again? and I concluded that I find the Balance K Omega to be FAR more exciting/pleasing aesthetically.
 
So I want the Balance K Omega.  Like the original plan.  But what about the reach?  Well, though I don?t completely understand it, I respect and accept your expertise, and your statement that you don?t think anyone can give me a definitive answer.  I consider your and Bob?s statement that the reach is ?similar? (between a 34? Europa and a 34? Balance K).  I tentatively assume that it should therefore require at least slightly less reach than my 35? 8-String.  I?ve found several testimonials regarding how ?ergonomic? and ?easy to play? the Balance K is.  And I think that, with a much smaller neck/more narrow neck, and with ?only? 1 Ebony laminate, and a smaller peghead, the overall feel? the other factors besides reach & scale length MUST surely make this bass MUCH easier to play.  So, I?m gonna take a chance with the reach issue, because, by process of elimination, I?m not willing to risk/sacrifice anything else.
 
I spend a LOT of time trying to find medium-scale strings, and, after looking about 300 different string offerings, and google-ing galore, I was unable to find even ONE set of medium-scale 6-string strings ?from ANYONE!!!  That sealed the deal on a 34 being the thing.  I?m not going to order an instrument with a medium or medium-long scale when apparently no strings exist for them (or are this hard to find)!
 
After reviewing Val?s ?Bird of Prey?, I AM REITERATING MY INTEREST IN THE ?PISTOL GRIP?.  I know I?ve seen more than that example, and ?Raging Bass?, but those were the only ones I could find.  Now the ?Pistol Grip? on Raging Bass didn?t grab me that much, especially as far as fitting in the the aesthetic nuances of the Balance K, but after looking at it a bunch of times, the obvious hit me (aided by the explicit comments that) that bass ISN?T a Balance K.  Then I remembered Val?s Bird of Prey having the Pistol Grip, and when I looked at HIS/that example, THAT Pistol Grip looks MUCH cooler, and looks like it adds a good inch or more while flowing better/fitting in better ?with the Balance K Omega.
 
SO I WANT THE BALANCE K OMEGA ?LIKE ORIGINALLY PLANNED? but I?m also VERY INTERESTED in the option of adding the ?Pistol Grip?, and request pricing for this essential detail, as well as an estimate of added length.  A really nice touch would be ?if it?s not too much trouble- to draw me a little simple mockup of what it would look like on a REGULAR (non-pointy variety) of the Balance K Omega ?maybe even superimposed OVER the regular, to really maximize the ?seeing? of the difference.
 
To be clear, I?m gonna stick with the BALANCE K OMEGA REGARDLESS.  But I?m VERY SERIOUS about considering the option of the extended Pistol Grip option.  If I can get something like Val?s Pistol Grip which doesn?t interfere with the flow/aesthetics of the body, and which adds an inch of ?reach?, I?ll want to get it, and price/affordability would be/is the only consideration.
 
The last I checked (earlier today) I still hadn?t received any price/info for this feature.  Actually, the most simple thing would seem to be to post it here, but if for any reason you prefer to send it privately via email, I?ll remind you my email address is: charlieshep@cox.net  
 
I should be able to give you a decision on this final detail pretty quickly upon receiving a price, and even quicker if there?s a mockup/picture to compare to/evaluate visually.
 
Also ?reminder- I?m still interested on price info for the ?mini-Omega? in the peghead.
 
Thanks again for your devotion to detail and greatness, Mica & gang!
 
I look forward to getting this info, so this can be resolved and put back into production!
 
P.S. Tomorrow -well, actually today (Friday) I'll be leaving for work by 6:30 a.m. and hopefully back before 4:00, at which point I'll immediately check back here, and possibly call, bassed on what's happening.  But I won't be here much before then.  If we don't hook up for whatever reason, I wish you all a happy weekend!
 
Mark

[the_8_string_king]

By the way, I'm starting to think that Burl Redwood Balance K is the prettiest I've EVER seen... if I wasn't so totally sold and gung-ho on the Coco Bolo and it's sound...
 
Wow, it REALLY looks awesome!

[cozmik_cowboy]

Maybe I'm missing something here, Mark, but why would the overall length of the string be an issue?  As we discussed in an earlier thread, what's above the nut doesn't affect the tension.  Pitch is a function of the combination of gauge, scale & tension, so I would think that the quest, rather than finding a specific overall length, would instead be to find a gauge that gives you the tension you want on your scale and still feels good.  If it's too long, just clip off the excess.  Us guitar types do it all the time.  Or, to look at it another way, if you want a 33 scale, the tension WILL be less with the same strings, so your decision is whether the tension is more important to your fingers than the reach. If reach is the main thing, long-scale strings will cover 33 as well as 34.  If the tension is more important, go with the long scale.  But I wouldn't base the choice on a lack of medium scale strings.  But if there's a factor I'm missing, please enlighten me; I freely admit (though never to my children) that there are many things I don't know.
 
Peter

[the_8_string_king]

NOTE: I'm submitting this post in 2 places: here, and in the Build Record & Discussion area.
 
Hi all.  I just got off the phone with Valentino, and based on our conversation, I now feel COMPLETELY secure with my decision to stick with the Balance K Omega.  Further, (again, based on that conversation) there doesn't seem to be any need for an extended horn/pistol grip.  So I'm withdrawing the request for price info on that.
 
So I'm giving you the go-ahead to proceed with the original plan, and I appreciate your having beared with me while I went through the necessary inconvenience of figuring it out and making sure I'd get the right thing for me.  I now feel very confident about it.
 
So at this point, I'm going to kick back and leave y'all alone for a while.  The biggest pending issue is just the Coco Bolo, and again, I'd appreciate the opportunity to see & approve your choices.  Other than that, the only other small things are the estimate for the 5-screw setup and a price for the peghead Omega; and both of these are minor details that can be addressed down the road when the bass is actually built, so there's no hurry.
 
I'll be keeping my eyes peeled here on FTC, and anxiously anticipating and appreciating the updates as they come, however big or small!  I look forward to the next stage -which I assume is putting on the body wings.
 
Thanks again for everything, and have a great weekend, folks.
 
Mark

[the_8_string_king]

Peter, after reading and rereading your post, I'm completely clueless about what you're referring to. You ask why would the overall length of the string be an issue?  Uhm... I don't know.  Who's saying it is, and where?  You state As we discussed in an earlier thread, what's above the nut doesn't affect the tension.  I remember... but... why are you bringing it up... what's it got to do with anything here?  I'm not clear.  This thread is about concern over the reach... the distance my hand/arm must reach to reach the 1st fret -NOT about overall string length nor the length of string above the nut.
 
I can't see any point/connection to anything that has been said here.
 
(Don't take that the wrong way, ya rascal... I appreciate 'yer feedback!  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on that previous thread!)

[cozmik_cowboy]

Two posts above mine, you were worrying over the trouble with finding medium gauge strings, and seemed to be leaning away from your first choice of scale due to that.  
 
( I was unable to find even ONE set of medium-scale 6-string strings ?from ANYONE!!! That sealed the deal on a 34 being the thing. I?m not going to order an instrument with a medium or medium-long scale when apparently no strings exist for them (or are this hard to find)!)  
 
I was wondering why the easier availablity of longer strings would dictate a change to 34 when a pair of sidecuts can render them any (shorter) length you want.  Sorry if I misunderstood your lament.
 
And, oh yeah - I LOVE that neck!
 
Peter
 
(Message edited by Cozmik_Cowboy on January 05, 2007)

[mica]

I've got your body shape recorded as Balance K with Omega cutout now. We're almost ready to lift the hold.
 
Okay, now that I reread your post, it seems you're not quite as ready on the body shape as I first thought (sorry sometimes I do get lost in a long post). What I heard from Val this afternoon was that we were sticking with the Balance K Omega style.  
 
Any custom body shape design starts at $650. This is not an item that is discounted through the dealer as it's strictly labor. It's not as simple as just adding a horn from one to the other; even when you change one small part, every curve needs to be reconsidered or it will look stuck on. If the details of the custom shape impact labor, like with extra carving for a pistol grip, you'll be charged for that as well.
 
Even though Valentino's Bird of Prey is based on the Balance K, it's a dedicated shape with many subtle changes to the perimeter, and not so subtle changes (like the extra pointies). To adapt this shape with the pistol grip (it must have two points in it - too long for any other consideration), it's still a custom design. It still gets the full attention of our staff to make sure it will be beautiful and functional.  
 
Now, I don't recall that we've made a Balance K with a pistol grip yet. The pistol grip option is an additional $300. Since it's a template that we'll use and reuse many times, we wouldn't charge the $650 minimum custom body shape design fee. Of course, you'd have like the shape we come up with for our standard library. Just some food for thought.  
 
See peghead shape thread for the last little bit.
 
(Message edited by mica on January 05, 2007)

[the_8_string_king]

Hi Mica.  After reading & rereading your edit to your post, and then going back over my most recents posts, I'm mystified.  There seems to be a misunderstanding, though if I've said something to cause it, I'm not sure what.  Anyway let me clarify.  I'll do it in terms of a timeline.  After thinking real hard about it in great detail and checking all sorts of things, I came to the conclusion THAT I WANT TO STICK WITH THE ORIGINAL PLAN... with the BALANCE K OMEGA.  And there were only 2 other issues: interest in the pistol grip, and the cost of the peghead omega.  I explicitly stated this above in my post #320.  Here are 3 paragraphs that state that, quoted from above:
 
SO I WANT THE BALANCE K OMEGA ?LIKE ORIGINALLY PLANNED? but I?m also VERY INTERESTED in the option of adding the ?Pistol Grip?, and request pricing for this essential detail, as well as an estimate of added length. A really nice touch would be ?if it?s not too much trouble- to draw me a little simple mockup of what it would look like on a REGULAR (non-pointy variety) of the Balance K Omega ?maybe even superimposed OVER the regular, to really maximize the ?seeing? of the difference.  
 
To be clear, I?m gonna stick with the BALANCE K OMEGA REGARDLESS. But I?m VERY SERIOUS about considering the option of the extended Pistol Grip option. If I can get something like Val?s Pistol Grip which doesn?t interfere with the flow/aesthetics of the body, and which adds an inch of ?reach?, I?ll want to get it, and price/affordability would be/is the only consideration.
 
and also:
 
Also ?reminder- I?m still interested on price info for the ?mini-Omega? in the peghead.
 
AFTER posting that at 1 am that morning, I called and spoke to Valentino that afternoon, and explicitly CONFIRMED the BALANCE K OMEGA.  He assured me there was nothing to worry about with the reach, and that it was easy to reach the 1st fret.  After speaking to him, I felt comfortable that the pistol grip wasn't needed, and told him to withdraw the request.  I asked about the pricing for the peghead omega, and he said he'd have to get that from Susan, so at that point I again confirmed explicitly that I wanted to stick with the original plan, the BALANCE K OMEGA, and told him I'd also immediately post a posting to that effect.
 
And that's exactly what I did.  As soon as I got off the phone, I made another post (post# 322, above) which I began with a note stating it was dual-posted here, and on the main thread -and that post explicitly referred to my conversation with Val, that I was dead-set on the original plan -the Balance K Omega- and that I was withdrawing my request for pricing on the pistol grip.  And I give you the explicit go-ahead in that post.  It seems as clear as it could be.  Apparently something has made you think that I'm not quite as ready on the body shape as you first thought, but I'm clueless what it would be.
 
I actually didn't see the edit until now 'cause I'd been thinking about the Omega in the headstock, and I didn't want to post about it until I was sure.  This was further complicated by reading Shim's threads, which made me aware of something significant that I wasn't aware of -which was that you could add the bass & treble toggles to Signature electronics for $400 per set.  This led to some thinking about that, 'cause I'd love to have Signature electronics IF I also had the B&T toggles -even if there were only one set; but it was too expensive, as I'd have to pay $400 just to get back the Signature package, and then ANOTHER $400 for the B&T toggles, and then another $125 for the other 3-position Q... and even with the dealer discount, it's still a bit too much, as much as I want it.  So, after I eliminated that consideration, and returned to the issue of the peghead omega and the bevel, I did decide that I WANT TO HAVE BOTH THE FRONT & REAR PEGHEAD BEVEL WITH THE PEGHEAD OMEGA.  (Based on the assumption that we'll run it through Beaver and get the dealer discount.  With that, I can, gasp, afford it!  [By which I mean, go further into debt over it!])
 
SO, TO SUMMARIZE: prior to this post, I'd decided FOR CERTAIN that I WANT THE BALANCE K OMEGA body WITH THE PEGHEAD BEVELED (front&back) AND THE PEGHEAD OMEGA.
 
And I HAD dismissed the pistol grip.  But y'know what?  You went and got me intrigued.  You haven't done one on a Balance K, you say...?  I guess the Bird of Prey doesn't count since it's not exactly a Balance K, but a custom Variant.
 
Yeah, now I'm curious again.  Perhaps it's some weird vanity or otherwise silly value, but the idea of having an Alembic first definitely has some appeal for me.  What can I say?  And we're talking about a functional feature here.  So now, at this point, I'm seriously re-considering the pistol grip... re-considering adding it.  $300 bucks isn't too hideous, and it could fit in well with the dual omegas.  I'm certain you'd make it look great.  The big question is: how much longer would the horn be?  Approximately.  It add's a little, right?  To be clear, if it DOESN'T add any length, we can scrap the idea right here.  But if it does go further towards the peghead, then I'm interested in considering it, and how much length it adds to the horn would be an important factor.
 
So, just to completely, absolutely clarify, I'm going to summarize the final details again, with the disclaimer that there are just TWO details left: whether or not I ADD the pistol grip; and whether the tailpiece will have 3 or 5 screws (which may affect whether I get the bird I'd prefer, or the bar.  I'd prefer a 5-screw bird to a 5-screw bar, but I'd prefer a 5-screw bar to a 3-screw bird.)
 
FINAL CONFIRMED SPECIFICATIONS FOR MARK'S CUSTOM BASS:
 
Mark King Deluxe Custom 6-String Alembic Bass
 
Balance K Omega body
 
Coco Bolo, front & back, BTC on front & back
 
Hollow Mahagoney Body
 
Custom neck, completed
 
Crown peghead, beveled front&back with omega -NO MARK KING LOGO (assuming dealer discount)
 
Pinstripe(s)at Alembic's discretion -BUT AS THIN AS POSSIBLE TO MINIMIZE SHAVING NECK down.  NO THICK ACCENT/PINSTRIPE(S), PLEASE.  
 
Peghead laminates at Alembic's discretion, if you happened to be inspired to create a combo to really go with the unique neck, that'd be extra cool.
 
Continuous wood backplates.
 
Europa electronics with 3-position Q, 1st preference is for the Diamond configuration -if there's no extra cost; otherwise, I prefer the Essense/Europa configuration.
 
If possible, I'd prefer (just) one electronics cavity, and if more than one is necessary, please avoid doing one on the neck, which I really hate.
 
That's it.  Really, we should be virtually ready to go here.  I was completelly ready, but now you've piqued my curiousity about the pistol grip, so I just want to know ABOUT how much length it adds.  Valentino's seems to add a good inch or so -but of course that's not necessarily the same as what mine would offer.  I don't even need to see it to make a decision, I know you'll do a great job.  But the added length is essential; again, if the pistol grip wouldn't add any length, then you can scrap the idea.  But I got the impression that it did add length, that that was part of the point.  It's explicitly stated that the pistol grip on Raging Bass adds length, and it's obvious that Val's is visibly longer than standard.
 
So really, this is the only thing.  Just get back to me on this, I'll give you a decision, and then y'all can go ahead with it.  The only other VERY small thing in the screw/tailpiece issue, which I assume we have a little time on, but which I can give you a decision on the minute I get the price.
 
If you need any clarification or anything else from me, let me know.  Once I decide on the pistol grip, I can call up Beaver and add on that, the bevel, and the peghead omega (and any extra for a 5-screw tailpiece -unless that goes directly to Alembic) that day.
 
If you had any pictures or references for the pistol grip, that would be cool.  Would it be pretty much like Raging Bass, or different?
 
(Message edited by the 8 string king on January 07, 2007)

[the_8_string_king]

Peter, cutting a long-scale string doesn't make it into a medium-scale string.  Medium-scale strings would be a different thickness, thicker, to compensate for their shorter-ness.
 
By all accounts, it's not as simple as just cutting the string; a long-scale string on a medium-scale bass simply won't have the same tension it does on a long scale; that's WHY you need the medium-scale strings... that's WHY they exist.  (At least, according to everything I've been told by all the experts -including the ones here!)
 
Thanks again for you input, and for helping me with my decision on custom #2!

[lbpesq]

O.K., I'll jump in on this one.  It seems to me that if you take, oh say for example, a .45 gauge long scale string and cut some of the length off, wouldn't it still be .45 gauge?  As length changes, the gauges may change that are used for strings labeled a simple generic light, medium, or heavy, but if one chooses specific gauges, I don't see how changing the length will result in a change of the thickness?
 
But what do I know, I only  
 
Bill, the guitar one.

[the_8_string_king]

Eggzactly.  Thet's whaht Ah'm theyin'!

[jacko]

One BIG problem with using long scale strings on a short scale bass is that the end that goes round the tuner capstan is likely to fracture. The winding end of a bass string is tapered for a good reason which I found out to my cost the first time I ever accidentally put long scale strings on my first homemade short scale bass.
 
graeme

[cozmik_cowboy]

Mark - Bill has made my point somewhat more succinctly than I.  A .45 is a .45, no matter what the length.
 
Graeme - AH!  That would come under the Maybe I'm missing something heading.  It's been so long since I strung a bass, I'd forgotten the tapered end - and this would explain Mark's reluctance to snip.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.
 
Back to Mark - in the words of Emily Lattella, Oh.  That's very different.  Never mind.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
Peter

[the_8_string_king]

This is getting pretty funny.  There is obviously a significant misunderstanding here.
 
For the record, I am fully aware that a .45 is a .45, regardless of length.  At no point in this -nor any other thread- have I said anything to the contrary.
 
If your postings DO have any bearing on anything I've said, I can't see what the connection is.
 
Cutting the end off a long-scale string simply (and obviously) will NOT turn it into a thicker gage medium-scale string -and thus has no value as a solution for an inability to find MEDIUM SCALE strings.

[the_8_string_king]

Mica, to confirm the conversation we just finished moments ago, I will be sticking with the STANDARD (NON-pistol grip) Balance K Omega.
 
That leaves only the possible/if needed approval on my part of the Coco Bolo (but if you think you've got it, go for it!!!) and the minor issue of 5 vs 3 screws.
 
So I'll leave y'all alone for a while, and I look forward to seeing the next stage here in my FTC thread when it comes.
 
Again, thanks so much, I appreciate your patience, and apologize for my sometimes excessive density!