Speaker size: 10" vs 15"

[glocke]

For years Ive played my Series I and my jazz basses through 15 Bag end cabs, and prior to my bag ends through other 15 speakers...
 
All this time Ive been told by other bass players and guitar players how much better tens (4x10) or twelves (2x12) are for definition, clarity, and punch....
 
I finally had a chance last night to play through a 4x12 (SWR).  To me, it didn't really have any of the above qaulities...I was using my series I, and it just sounded way to thin for me...It didn't seem to have as wide a tonal spectrum as my bag end 15 (which does not have a horn), or the warmth and fatness of that cabinet...The 4x10 seemed to be slighly better for slapping, but not much.
 
So I was just wondering if there are any other 15 users out there that feel the same way, and for the guys that are into the ten and twelve speaker size, what is it you like about them, and does it have anything to do with the type of music you play?

[David Houck]

To state the obvious, warmth and punch are not the same thing .  I think one of the main differences between 10's and 15's involves the physics of moving a 10 speaker and a 15 speaker.  A 10 speaker should have more definition, clarity, and punch because it's easier to move the smaller speaker; it's response should be quicker, and thus more accurate in the higher frequencies; there is less travel.  However, the larger speaker should be able to reproduce the lower frequencies more easily.  And that's probably the reason it sounds warmer to you.  Of course these are just generalizations and I'm ignoring things like cabinet design.  It sounds like you're happy with the warm sound you're getting from your 15.  You may want to try combining your 15 cab with a 2x10 cab, with or without an active crossover.  This will maintain that low end warmth and add some high end definition.  You wouldn't really need a crossover; if your power amp has gain controls for each channel, you can dial in each cabinet until you find the combination that works best for you.  Since you like the Bag End cab, you may want to try their 2x10 in combination with your 15.  But if you're happy with your sound the way it is, that's great!

[phys49]

All speakers have fundamental resonant frequencies. These are the frequencies that are loudest when notes are played. In general, the smaller the diameter of the speaker, the higher this fundamental frequency will be.
Cabinets are designed to smooth out these peaks without losing the efficiency of the speaker.
People who like big bottom end will usually be happier with larger speaker diameters. People who want to hear more of the midrange and high end frequencies will like smaller speakers.
Some cabinets try to balance the sound by including several different sizes or types of speakers(paper cone, horns, piezo tweeters, etc.)
To further complicate things, the diffraction patterns produced by different size speakers will vary with speaker diameter and the wavelength of the sound being produced. The acoustical characteristics of the venue will also affect the sound.
In order to avoid getting bogged down in the physics of sound, the best philosophy may be  If it sounds good, use it.

[son_of_magni]

I have to point out also that you are comparing Bag End to SWR.  The SWR just isn't a worthy opponent.  Also the SWR is probably rear ported.  You might have a better comparison if you tried an Eden with front ports or a Bag End cab.  I think the best of both worlds is a 210 with a 118, both front ported.  With a variable x-over.

[lowlife]

I have to agree with Karl.  The name on the cabinet (SWR, Eden, Bag End, Mesa etc) and the type of cabinet (front port, rear port, one port two ports) can make all the difference in the comparason.  For myself, 10's don't have enough rumble or warmth, and 15's alone don't have enough punch and definition (IMHO). So I use both in my setup, in order to get the best of both worlds.
 
Ellery (Lowlife)

[worldfamousandy]

I prefer to have both 15's and 10's in my rig, as well.  I am very happy with my Mesa Boogie 2X15 on the bottom, with a Mesa Boogie 2X10 on top.  I use an F-1X and, and send the low-pass to the 15's, and the 10's get full range.  It's awesome, but a real pain to move around.  For most weddings and othe casuals, I end up with only the 10's.  One of my students recently picked up an Accugroove 1X12, and it's incredible.  The sound is terrific, and it is very portable.  I might pick up the Epifani 2X12 ultralight.  As a stand-alone box, the 12's are able to give you more useful frequencies than 10's.  I like those low-mids.

[rogertvr]

I've got a Trace Elliot 1 x 15 and a Trace Elliot 4 x 10.  They're both front ported. the head is a Trace Elliot AH250.
 
I can't use either of the cabs on their own, I don't overly like the sounds of them if I do that.  But combined, I get a very wide tonal spectrum that I just love!

[keith_h]

I also use a combination of 10 (2 or 4)  and 15 (1 or 2) speakers. If I had to pick and use just one I would probably go with my JBL 15 inchers  but they sound the best combined with the 10's.  
 
Keith

[bigbadbill]

My favourite cab that I ever owned (or even heard) was my Mk 1 Trace Elliot 4x10 (pre-Kevlar). I loved that cab, but unfortunately when my back problems started I had to sell it. I've been trying varying degrees of downsizing ever since. For a long while I was just using a Trace 1x15 1153 compact with a 300SMX head.  I then moved to an Ashdown Klystron Bass Magnifier 200w 1x15 combo, which sounded very different to the Trace (and it wasn't just the heads). The Trace 1153 1x15 is very punchy for a 1x15 (although it lacks some dynamic sensitivity IMHO) and is very fat sounding. The Ashdown is not as punchy but is more sensitive to dynamics. It's also more papery sounding. However as even the combo has been causing me problems, I recently switched to a separate head and two 1x12 Aguilars. In a test between the combo and my Ashdown 500 head with single Aguilar, the combo (despite being only 200W) was louder, more open in the midrange and deeper sounding. Again, more papery. The Aguilar, run with the tweeter flat, has a tighter response, still very acceptable depth and fatness (in fact I would say was just as fat as the Ashdown 15, but not quite as deep), and is all round a very acceptable compromise. It remains a compromise though, although obviously the tweeter helps give a few more options. Haven't gigged the rig yet though, and haven't tried the two Aguilars together either but I have it on good authority that I'll be doubly impressed.  
 
At the end of the day not all 15s sound similar; nor do all 10s or 12s. I always think you should use your ears. And it also depends what amp your using and what bass you're playing. The rigs that suit my Ricks generally sound poor with everything else, and vice versa (which is a right royal pain!).

[lothartu]

bigbadbill,
 
I'm trying to put together a similar rig.
 
F2B > (some power amp) > 2 Aguilar 1x12's
 
Make sure to pop back in and let us know how using the two Aguilar 1x12's turned out.
 
- Jim

[kayo]

Hello Folks - I've been out of circulation for a year... and I am back.
 
How refreshing it is to see the same folks chiming in with respectful, professional and educated points of view!
 
I used to use a Mesa 1x15 (pre-walkabout series) - and I felt that the cone diameter was just not responsive enough for the type of sound I was hearing in my head.  Then I had a Trace Elliott 1x15 and to me - it was a downgrade in terms of impact on tone as opposed to the Mesa.
 
Then the Hartke aluminum cone craze hit the market - and I did not like it either (never owned it but everyone else did) - followed by all the major vendors dishing out their version of 4x10's.
 
Ultimately, I came across Bag End - whom I really am partial to.  I really dig their ELF series, and the deep red extended range 4x10 is what I use now.  My ideal config would be to add the ELF 1x18 to my extended range deep red 4x10.  I also like the EBS version(s), and the Victor Wooten model Ampeg 1x15.
 
But as the other's stated - it's personal - and above all else - be true to thineSelf.  If you like it - 'nuff said.  
 
Lately - I have been very curios about a new trend... yet smaller cones!!!!  I opened up for a Blues band that had Mario Ciopllini (from Huey Lewis and the News) here in SF about 2 months ago and he was using those new BOSE Tower PA set up - and he loves those (I think) 4.25' cones... of which I belive there are 24 in each tower - and he uses 2 BOSE enclosures that have (I think) 16x4.25.  I was rather impressed with the sound... and there is this manufacturer (Phil Jones) that is now seliing various versions of cabinets that have 5 cones that I really would like to try.  I guess in an ideal world - we'd all have the resources to own every configuration possilbe... then again there's reality.

[kmh364]

Welcome Back, Kayo!
 
As always, let your ears be your guide.
 
Personally, I use two Eden 210XST 4Ohm cabs. They sound great, but I chose them for portability first. I'm always looking out for my aching back, knee and wrists, LOL!
 
Cheers,
 
Kevin
 
(Message edited by kmh364 on October 20, 2005)

[David Houck]

Hi Kayo;
 
Since you've been gone, there have been maybe a couple threads on the Bose thing and several threads on the Phil Jones stuff.  So if you're interested you might want to run a search.  If I recall correctly, neither received glowing reviews from club members; but then my memory isn't very reliable.

[dnburgess]

Speaker diameter is just one parameter in a complex system and on its own really doesn't tell you much. e.g. some boxes built around 10 speakers have better bottom end than other boxes using 15 or even 18.

[811952]

One of the bands I play in uses 2 of the Bose personal PA systems (or whatever they're called) with the Bose subwoofers.  For smaller venues they are the bee's knees.  No monitors, no feedback and they sound great on the vocals, which are all we run through them.
 
I have of late been playing through 2 (or 1 if I'm lazy) Kustom Groove Bass 410H cabinets, which I A/B'd against a couple of different Ampeg 410 cabinets prior to buying.  They are worth giving a listen if you can find one.  The cabinet uses the ubiquitous Eminence 10s (Deltas I think, but I'm not certain about that), is front-ported, has a tweeter with an attenuation knob and the tuning of the combination sounds very musical to my ears.  It's warm with plenty of smooth bottom.  Other than the weight, I really really like the way my basses sound through them.  And I can get them into and out of the back of my truck by myself, although it's not the most fun thing I've ever done...
 
http://www.kustom.com/products/bass_amps/groovebass.asp
 
John