Author Topic: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation  (Read 1713 times)

alemberic

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2010, 12:47:09 AM »
First, the name of this forum is The Alembic Club.  This name appears, at least to my admittedly simple mind, to be a pretty clear indication of the intended focus, not to mention boundaries, of any discussion one would reasonably expect to see or engage in here.( I am also good--like Wilfred says above--with including musical instruments, music and artists in our forum discussions.)  Accordingly, I don't see any compelling argument for making  social, religious, or political issues topics of discussion among club posters.  As Dave has pointed out over and over again, if someone wants to discuss those issues, he/she can do so on numerous other blogs, forums, websites, tweets, etc.  
 
Second, there's been a lot of talk both in this thread and others in the past about censorship, free speech, and in one notable comment I remember from the past year,  Constitutional rights.  Folks, this is a privately owned, privately maintained site.   Sorry, no Constitution here.  This site is in existence-- along with free, unrestricted access to it-- solely because of  the generosity and kindness of the Wickershams.  The fact that you and I have access to the site does not grant us rights.  We don't own this site, however frequently we drop in.  In the past, Dave has suggested that in this forum we should conduct ourselves as though we were guests (which, in fact, we are), invited into the Wickershams' living room.  I may be getting too old (the first number of my age is 6), but one of the principles I was brought up under is that you don't discuss sex, politics, religion, or finances with guests who come into your home.  Not that these subjects aren't interesting or important, but not discussing these things can prevent a whole lot of drama, hurt feelings, and damaged or destroyed friendships from occurring.  
 
I agree with Bob's suggestion about an off-site forum for Alembicians wishing to discuss other matters.  
 
Eric

masterofmanystrings

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2010, 04:17:41 PM »
Hey gang.  This is an open letter to the management & members of the Alembic Club.  This letter comes at the explicit request of more than one current or ex Club member.
 
I?m sure many of you will remember me as the ?8 String King?? I used to be a member here, but since terminating my membership have maintained contact with several past and/or current Club members ?some of whom I?ve contacted, some of whom (have) contacted me.  Discussions with these individuals have repeatedly resulted in some suggesting I share some thoughts here; until now, I?ve chosen not to make the effort to do so.
What I have to say is entirely well-intentioned, with no malicious intent, and with no intentions other than constructive.  I wish to share thoughts which pertain to the topic of this thread, and which are of great relevance and importance to the topic.
 
After several drafts, I?m just going to try and ramble through and present my thoughts and points in a linear way.  I?ll try to get to the point as soon as I can.  But one last comment is to make clear in advance that I fully respect the rights of management to run their website however they choose and to allow/not allow whatever they wish, good or bad, rational or irrational.  I do not take issue with that, and what I?m about to say isn?t directed at that angle.
 
HERE WE GO.  I used to be a ?senior member? here, and posted/interacted here frequently/regularly.  For the most part, I enjoyed the Forum and my interactions here ?although I certainly regularly saw things I didn?t like, including plenty of ?offensive? things.  This never bothered me in the slightest.  You see, ?offensiveness? is a necessary consequence of open/meaningful dialogue/communication.  To be more precise, in order for a forum/medium to be capable of harboring meaningful discourse, it must not attempt to ?dis-allow ?offensive? speech?.
 
TO BE BLUNT, I hold/submit a/the two-fold argument that (1) the notion that we ?ought? to be protected from ?offense? is flawed to the point of absurdity, and (2) the notion that we ?can? be protected from offense is flawed to the point of absurdity.  Both these notions are patently false, absurd, and, when implemented, harmful.  And of course what we?re talking about here is CENSORSHIP? when someone decides that another person?s thoughts/words/communications will be deleted/modified to ?protect? some from being offended.  Well, from my perspective, this is absurd ?and on several fronts.  First of all, censorship is fundamentally flawed because it not only doesn?t solve the (alleged) ?problem? (and, I hold, can?t) but (instead) causes a bigger problem.  From my perspective, censorship is infinitely more of a ?problem? than ?offensiveness?.  NOTHING that anyone could say, even the most malicious, hate-filled, and profanity-ridden rantings could offend me as much as the mentality of anyone who advocates eliminating their words because they?re ?offensive?.  So what?
 
You see, I take fundamental issue with the whole underlying mentality and suppositions (of censorship);  I don?t see it as either possible or even desirable to ?eliminate offensiveness?.  I submit that if one seriously attempts to defend the notion that it IS possible and/or desirable to do both, one will not be able to even present a credible position that isn?t absurd and laughable, much less defend it.
 
You CAN?T eliminate ?offensiveness? with censorship? you can only eliminate what the censor regards as ?offensive?.  But the notion that one ?should? eliminate it is highly questionable at the least, and patently false at the most.  Allowing all expressions ??offensive? AND ?not offensive? is essential, as the notion that there is a universally accepted standard? should be a self-evident absurdity.
 
This is a DEEP subject, and one worth of discussion which could go on for quite some length.  I?m not inclined to go further, myself.  I made the fundamental point.  But I?ll add to it, and tell you the censorship policy and atmosphere here has achieved the opposite of the apparent intentions of management? its driven people away.  There are at least a half dozen current or ex-members from this Club who?ve explicitly told me they either don?t come here at all now or do so less or just scan the postings but don?t interact here ?because of the policies of management here regarding censorship, and because of the atmosphere that this has created.
See, back when I was here, it was a lot less uptight, but still on a regular basis, individuals would post ?offensive? things.  (Remember, from/under my paradigm, this is a given, and in fact there is no possibility it could be avoided.)  Sometimes I would be offended by posts, often of a religious or political nature.  So what?  The question is, ?how did I respond??  And the answer is, ?by communicating?.  And surely my responses might well likely be ?offensive? (at least, to ?some?)? how could they not be?
 
It was always in these situations that the inherent flaws of censorship would manifest themselves.  Someone would start a thread of a ?sensitive? nature? something ?political? or ?religious?? something with a PHILOSOPHICAL underpinning (meaning: something of IMPORTANCE).  Then responses would be lambasted and/or censored, often/usually with Dave Houck?s flower rainbow-scented ?press the button and hear the repetitious phrase on your talking action figure? ?company line?? I can?t even stand to partially quote it.
 
Then on one such occasion, Dave completely deletes an ?offensive? post of mine (but of course not the other posts which evidently were satisfactory to his enlightened and almighty self).  To add further insult and injury to things, it was accompanied by his little generic ?I may not have meant what I wrote? blurb? no Censor Dave, I meant exactly what I wrote.  AND THAT WAS IT FOR ME.  I simply won?t spend any time in a forum that? lacks integrity? yeah, that?s it.  When you exercise censorship, you eliminate intellectual honesty and integrity, and also invite/encourage self-censorship, and it becomes a much less desirable place.
 
I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE.  I left quietly and quickly, my parting words being ?yeah right? in response to Dave?s BS about how I may not have meant what I wrote.  What would be the point of responding in such an environment?  Trying to ?prohibit offensiveness? creates an offensive and inhospitable environment.  Sure, if we want to sit around and stroke ourselves about how our Alembics are great, we can do that.  And it certainly it appropriate to do so.  But there?s a lot more to life than that.
We?re in a pretty screwed-up world with a lot of big problems.  I submit a large part of that comes from us NOT discussing a bunch of frankly potentially ?highly offensive? subject matter.  I would submit that much of the most important things in life involve discussing differing ideas and positions that are almost certainly ?highly offensive?? it?s really just a question of ?to who? and ?why?.
 
How do we handle offensiveness?  Well, not all the same way, that?s for sure.  I respond to it, intellectually? that?s what I do.  On the other hand, I?ve repeatedly experienced the phenomenon of others ?taking offense? at my communications, and then going off and sniveling to someone (Susan, in, she said, more than one case).  Then I one day got a phone call from Susan ?a very polite and respectful but pointed call- regarding my ?problematic? (my word, not hers) conduct.  Experience has taught me that those who, to be blunt, apparently lack the maturity, experience, and adult skills to respond to offense in a constructive, enlightened, and adult-like manner instead, like children, basically whine and cry until ?mommy? or ?daddy? or ?whoever?? the ?authority figure(s)?? the CENSOR(s)? respond(s).  Yeah.
 
They bring us all down, these people.  Those that can?t handle the inherently negative aspects of communication and honest adult interactions try and put shackles on those who can? and the sad thing is they only bring everyone and everything down ?while not really even achieving their own objectives.  The best you can achieve is to eventually have a primarily homogenous group with a transient group of those who come and eventually leave when the underlying implicitly/explicitly monitored/censored environment becomes evident.
 
Our ability to communicate openly and honestly ?and therefore, OFFENSIVELY- in general, but most especially and particularly ON THE INTERNET, is one of the most important things in the world, literally.  It?s actually, I would submit, the best chance our world and civilization has for survival.  Most of the problems in the world exist not because there aren?t solutions, but because people are either unwilling or unable to say and/or hear them.  Our survival as a planet, a race, and a civilization is a function of the extent to which those who know what is good and those who want to know what is good are able to speak and hear without interference.  But this means that all viewpoints, the good and the bad, the ugly and the pretty, the offensive and the inoffensive? must be heard? because there is no way to separate them? other than permitting them all to be expressed and considered.
The whole recent ?problem? that led to all the new mods and the ?board policy changes? was both comical and tragic, and had resulted in even more unhappy Club members who have left altogether or come here less.  That problem involved an individual with clear and extensive psychological problems? a ?classic troll?? who was just fed over and over and over by members who then got upset with the troll for doing what trolls do when they?re fed.   The whole issue was dealt with poorly? the troll either should have stopped being fed and ignored?. OR, alternatively the troll could have been confronted and collectively given consistent and crushing criticism.  Something could have been done? and if no one here had the skills, I can assure you there are others who used to come here who did? but who don?t because of the negative censorship policy here.
 
I could go on, but I think I?ve made my point.  It can be denied, recognized, or downplayed, and that will be up to each individual who considers it.
 
I write this because the thread itself indicates that perhaps it?s dawning upon some that the idea of a ?free speech zone?? the idea of maybe being able to honestly communicate without fear of censorship here? might be a good idea.
It is.  Censorship has degraded and devalued the Alembic website, and actively discouraged members from participating.  Once upon a time, there were rich conversations here ?in addition to the back-slapping and stroking.  It was a better place, much more fun.
 
I miss? most of you? and wish you the best.  I?m not ?back?? I just re-registered to make this post.  I?m not inclined to come back as long as Dave Houck is here in a censoring capacity, and don?t expect that condition to change.  But I hope for your sake and the sake of those who don?t participate here (or do so less than they otherwise would) and for the sake of future board members that this horrible policy change is corrected.
 
Having a ?censorship free? ?free speech zone? in the ?Misc? section should be an absolute minimum for this or any website.  To not have such an area is to be part of what causes/perpetuates problems in the world.
 
One other thing.  I submit the idea of some other off-board medium in which members can FREELY and OPENLY discuss things is a bad idea... it's passing the buck.  The question is, can members here on this site have honest and uncensored communication HERE?  I submit they SHOULD be able to have that.  Those who aren't up for it should exercise the discipline to not participate.  If you can't deal with reading things you don't like and interacting with others whom you disagree with... don't.  But don't try and stop me and others from having this option, and if you choose to, don't play dumb and wonder why it's a less fun place to be.
 
Sorry for such a long post, I had a lot to say.  Hope it means something, 'cause I sure wasn't interested in writing it to hear myself talk.  I hope it matters to those here... even and perhaps especially those who disagree with and/or are offended by it.
 
Later, gang.
 
(Message edited by masterofmanystrings on May 08, 2010)

glocke

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2010, 04:25:09 PM »
Personally, I think this site is best served by remaining dedicated to discussing Alembics and music related things.
 
The misc. section is cool because posts there for the most part range from being music related, to topics that are not music related yet do not head off into the political spectrum (for the most part anyway).
 
Id like to see the boards remain free from a political discussion forum for many reasons.  First off, it is pretty much a forum dedicated to Alembic instruments and music, and should remain so.  Secondly, from what I see in other forums dedicated to politics, things can get real nasty real fast.  
 
Personally I find this site to be kind of a panacea.  I know I can come here and find pics of cool instruments, cool threads about music, or in the misc. section find some interesting (non-politcal) tidbit that is entertaining.
 
I would also like to point out that alemberic statement above is right on the money.  This site exists solely because of the Wickershams, and by visiting this site we are basically guests in their house.  I for one would never start a heated political discussion when I am a guest somewhere.  
 
Basically I and many others come here to discuss Alembics and related items.  If I want to discuss computers I go to a computer forum.  If I want to discuss politics I go here :
 
http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47
 
and hope I dont get banned again!!
 
Looks like someone has also suggested an offsite forum for discussing potentially heated topics...I second or third that suggestion...Maybe build a seperate forum for that on Yahoo or something and post a link for it somewhere here.

masterofmanystrings

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2010, 04:40:49 PM »
And one more thing for your collective consideration.  From my perspective, and from the perspective of several other ex and/or current members -who have elected and/or may (or may not) elect to speak for themselves- the censorship policies/mindset here of discouraging and out outright censoring certain type of posts has created a homogeneous and self-limited enviroment here... it seems that perhaps a majority of people here are either approving or accepting of censorship here, accepting the notion of some other than this forum place in which they can speak freely as being acceptable.  Well, from my perspective, why even bother with this site at all?  The notion of such a dichotomy in the first place would discredit both sites.
 
You... (those of you that accept, for whatever reason(s) censorship... in either an internally and/or externally censored atmosphere/environment... have, whether you realized it or not, discouraged (and very strongly so) those with differing viewpoints from... frankly, BOTHERING with you... because, that's what you make it... a bother.  Odds are, we find you just as offensive as you find us; but we don't go sniveling or censoring you; we don't suggest that you and your thoughts be censored to protect us or anyone from the horrors of being offended.  We do what mature and enlightened people of good intentions endeavor to do... speak honestly and openly.
 
So many of you here very clearly don't realize how many special people you discourage from coming here... people that might offend you... and might also have interesting and insightful and valuable things to say.  They often, if not always, go hand in hand... they can not be separated.
 
What you... what we... we all have to gain... or lose... from whichever of the two alternatives we advocate and live according to... is something of infinite value.  It is not something to dismiss casually.  Of course, those who are unable and/or unwilling to grasp this may therefore not have any other choice.
 
Trying to put any chains or restrictions on communication devalues and diminishes the restrictive forum/format, and the quality of the communication(s) that occurs.
 
And this is sad.
 
Allowing and dealing with offensiveness is BY FAR the lesser of the evils.  The visable/obvious/immediate AND the more subtle/invisible consequences of these two fundamental alternatives represent 2 opposite extremes of the good and bad continuum.
 
Anyway, just wanted to add that.  I've exactly zero interest arguing the issue with anyone... if it HAS to BE argued, there isn't any point.
 
Hope my words aren't wasted.  Later.

masterofmanystrings

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2010, 05:19:17 PM »
Okay, I don't want to be a hypocrite, I just said I don't want to argue, and I don't, though what I'm about to post might invite argument.  But the last post by Glock after my earlier post is a great example to reference:
 
Id like to see the boards remain free from a political discussion forum for many reasons. First off, it is pretty much a forum dedicated to Alembic instruments and music, and should remain so. Secondly, from what I see in other forums dedicated to politics, things can get real nasty real fast.
 
Let me analyze this briefly. I'd like to see the boards remain free from a political discussion forum for many reasons. First off, it is pretty much a forum dedicated to Alembic instruments and music, and should remain so.  Okay.  Great.  Seems reasonable.  I agree.  So what?  Secondly, from what I see in other forums dedicated to politics, things can get real nasty real fast.  Yes, that's true.  Things can get real nasty real fast... that's always a possibility.  How we ought to, and how we do choose to deal with open and uncensored discourse are important and valid questions.
 
However, there is an implication here that these dots should be connected to imply open political/philosophical/potentially offensive discussion should be banned, the basis being essentially that some people lack the skills to interact with those of highly differing viewpoints with anything other than a degenerative approach.
 
I resent this tremendously.  I have these skills, and I know plenty of others that have them as well; anyone and everyone can identify/develop/acquire the skills to interact with those of differing viewpoints in a civilized and non-degenerative way... IF they choose.  If they choose not to, that is their sad choice/perrogative... but the notion that myself and others who have NOT made that choice, and who have instead chosen to learn to deal with others in a civilized way, using rational (and frequently/inherently offensive) discourse... should have our options restricted because of THEM... it's punishing (arbitrarily, and in advance) the virtuous for the vices of others.  No exaggeration.
 
If you don't like the channel I'm watching or the music I'm listening or the thoughts I'm either listening to/seeing and or speaking/writing... then don't watch/listen.  If you don't have what it takes to interact in a mature way... don't.  But don't use YOUR shortcomings to restrict those who choose not to be so limited.
 
To do so is ignorance... until once you realize that that is what you're doing.  Once you DO realize this (or willfully evade the realization), you've then crossed over into something much worse.
 
You want to place limits on the communication that occurs here?  Well, you'll succeed, and beyond what you realize.  You have already succeeded... you have greatly limited what occurs and is communicated here... by creating an environment that very strongly discourages people from consistently openly and honestly expressing their thoughts.
 
One of the most absolutely important and wonderful things in life, and something which countless people fought and died for, is our ability to freely and openly communicate, and argue, and, on those occaissions where all parties involved are so inclined, for egos and insecurities to be cast aside in favor of identifying errors and contradictions, and learning, and growing and improving.
 
To censor in any way is to attack the whole essense and underpinning of that process/structure.
 
In short, censorship causes far more harm than anything that is or could be censored; the only questions are how much more harmful and how obvious vs. subtle the harm is.
 
Okay, I'm going away now.  I'll be curious to see what impact, if any, this has.  You may or may not hear from a few other current or ex-members who've encouraged me to share may thoughts, but it's not my place to quote any of them.

ajdover

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2010, 05:19:39 PM »
Lots of opinions here, and many relevant points.  I'll keep my two cents as brief as possible.
 
An area in the miscellaneous section of the club will work only if all accept and understand that there will be things there that may make one's blood boil.  Also, it will work only if folks agree to remain civil, e.g., at some point agree to disagree and move on, no name calling, etc.  Finally, it will work only if the Wickershams, the owners/operators of this site, agree to allow it, period.  
 
One thing for them to consider (if they haven't already) - do you really want a place on your company's website where politics/religion etc. are discussed?  I've visited other company websites (Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, Musicman, Pedulla, etc.) and none of them have a place on their sites for such discussions that I can see.  If it were me, I'd say no. If there is to be such a forum, I'd recommend that it be linked elsewhere.  As I said, if I'm the Wickershams I wouldn't want this on my site.  Alembic is a musical instrument company, not a political think tank.
 
As for Dave Houck ....
 
Dave, IMHO has a very difficult job (as does any moderator on any site).  While I don't necessarily agree with what some here might term his touchy feely, new age approach, I can appreciate the difficulty he faces in moderating the site.  I've personally met Dave, and while I don't know him very well, from the interaction I've had here with him he is a reasonable person.  I have, on occasion, made his job harder via interaction I've had here with certain individuals.  Even when I caused him headaches, he was reasoned and balanced in his responses and actions.  I'd submit that the fact that things are as civil as they are here is a testament to him, and the other moderators.  
 
Alan

glocke

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2010, 05:50:29 PM »
Manystrings:
 
I see your point, and to a certain extent agree with you but:
 
a)  Even though this forum is open to the public, the servers are privately owned by the Wickershams.  Being privately owned, there should be no expectation of free speech.  I have pretty loose rules when people come to visit me at my private residence.  No hard drugs, don't bring people Ive never met before, and don't bait me with by trying to get  me to react to a topic you know I am sensitive to (Im pretty laid back, but I do have buttons that for some reason certain people like to push).  If people break these rules, they are simply asked to leave and are not welcome back.  It is my house, and I set the rules and ask that people respect them, if people do not like that they dont have to come over.  The same goes when I go to visit others, I respect any rules they have in place, and I stay away from topics that I know they may be overly sensitive to as my desire for their company outweighs my desire to get into a discussion with them on a topic they may be sensitive to.
 
I think Alan has hit it right on the money that in a way, this forum does represent Alembic, and I think it is highly inappropriate to have a section of the forum dedicated to what could possible be heated and confrontational issues.  There really are a ton of places on the internet for that.
 
One suggestion I do have.....Make the damn box that you type you reply in bigger!!!  lol..

bsee

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2010, 05:51:00 PM »
Having read the previous lengthy posts, I would like to post a brief counter in reply.
 
Simply put, the Alembic website is not the world. There are all sorts of venues out there. It wouldn't be appropriate to start playing trumpet in the front row at a pro basketball game, or in the audience at the symphony. Is it censorship if security takes your trumpet away? I don't believe anyone who wishes to keep political and religious discussions from these boards is saying they shouldn't occur. We just believe this is the wrong venue.  
 
This site should exist at a business level to promote and support Alembic products. The  further removed any conversation gets from thk,ose goals, the less appropriate it is for these boards. I would argue that more of the world's problems are caused and perpetuated by selfishness and the feeling of entitlement that has developed in our society over the past couple generations than by restricted communication.
 
I will agree on one thing, though. I have, on occasion, found some of Dave's moderator speeches to be offensive. They occasionally come across as condescending with all the word-smithing and that can feel more rude than the straight forward approach. I would ask that the moderators remember that members here are generally educated adults and should be treated as such. Keep it short, respectful and on point.

slawie

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2010, 06:34:44 PM »
Is this something that requires a vote?  
Would it really matter as majority rules may marginalise the minority vote.  
Should this site be an Oligarchy?  
 
If there were two options would they be, either;
 
1. Provide a place in this forum for topics that may offend some people
 
2. Continue as currently managed i.e. No changes.
 
Personally I like the Club, the people, the products and the overall pleasantness of the participants and I have done so for a good many years even before becoming a member.
This forum and the discussion topics are civilised, interesting, educational and beneficial.  
It makes my music world a better place.
It is complete in its representation of all that is good about music and those people who are involved in the creation of music.
 
I would like - No changes
 
slawie
“Commitment is what transforms a promise into reality.”
Abraham Lincoln

mike13

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2010, 07:45:52 PM »
Why don'nt you all look at the name of the site we are on The Alembic Club for members to talk about a great product,and get help from Mica and the crew if required.There are plenty of political sites to talk crap on,as my friend Slawie who lives down the road from me in OZ says No changes just get the site back on the Alembic track

3rd_ray

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2010, 07:49:22 PM »
I agree a lot with Mark (manystrings) except that I don't have a problem with Dave and I don't think Alembic has any obligation to allow posts that deal with politics, religion or anything other than music. I haven't agreed with everything Dave has written, but I have no reason to believe that he wasn't doing what he thought was right and fair. There have been one or two people here who I think are instigators, and some of that led to me not having much to say here.
 
There probably is no good solution, but I think the best thing to do is to immediately remove all threads that start out about politics (I don't think I've ever seen a post here about religion). There doesn't need to be an explanation, just remove it. Make a rule and live by it, no exceptions. There might still be some people who can't resist writing about politics inside of a thread, but nipping every bogus thread in the bud will deal with most of the problem.  
 
The only other forum I participate in is at Carvin. I've only seen a few inappropriate posts there, and I've seen them disappear pretty quick. There's no apology, no explanation, they just disappear. If people want to write about politics they should go somewhere else. It's as simple as that. Some people might get angry when their post gets deleted and they might stop posting here, but you're going to lose other people when you let little things turn into big things.

mike1762

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2010, 03:35:10 AM »
This situation relates somewhat to my experience in the doctor's lounge.  Most physicians tend to be very conservative... and arrogant.   As such, Faux News is CONSTANTLY blaring in the background and there are some pretty hard-core opinions about pretty much EVERYthing floating around the place.  Let's just say my own attitudes are left of center.  Everyone is aware of that fact and we just live and let live.  We might have a discussion about a potentially hot topic, but we back-off when it's clear someone is starting to get agitated.  We can do that because we are in the same room and reading each other's body language.  That is lost in electronic communication.  I would like to think that (name your favorite forum troll) would have backed-off had they been in the room and took notice that their comments were causing some distress.  In this medium someone HAS to referee or chaos WILL ensue.  We're just trying to define the line.  I again propose that the line is the point at which Alembic's business or reputation might be compromised.

pas

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2010, 06:43:20 AM »
Mike,
 
Thanks for the gratuitous swipe at Faux News.  You've just concisely demonstrated why politics have no place here.

glocke

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2010, 06:47:06 AM »
Haha.   I happen to like like fox news.   I'm offended and leaving, and taking my alembics with me !

tbrannon

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Re: Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2010, 07:21:55 AM »
It's already been stated here, but if we're trying to gauge reaction then I'll weigh in as well.
 
I don't come to this website to read politics, religion, etc.  I come here because I think Alembic makes incredible instruments.  Additionally, this is by far the most helpful internet forum I've ever frequented.  Technical questions, music theory, band advice... responses to problems are respectful, well thought out and timely.  THAT is why I frequent this forum on a daily basis.
 
I don't come here to read social commentary, scientific debate or political soapboxing.  I also don't think that the Misc. section should become a free for all for those interested in having political/religious discussions.  There are a lot of great topics ad conversations that happen in Misc that I would entirely skip over if I thought that the Misc section was going to be open to conversations that I have no interest in reading.
 
It is my opinion that Alembic will be hurting their corporate image by sponsoring such a subsection of the forum.  Potential clients certainly do check the website and forum before purchasing- that's how I stumbled across this forum almost 8 years ago. Alembic may well attract a small minority by opening this forum up to political and religious debates, but I think the vast majority of new users and/or clients would be turned off by heated debates and controversial topics.  
 
The bottom line is that this is ALEMBIC's bottom line.  This is not a public forum- it's privately owned. Alembic should do what they think is best and to be perfectly honest, I think we all should be grateful to have the platform for discussion that they ultimately choose and provide.