Open Forum on Political Discussions and Moderation

[richbass939]

I guess for me really the forum is about good harmony amongst members with just enough demented intervals to add interest without ruining the music.
Jazzyvee's comment sums up my feelings.  Many other people have expressed that they come to the Alembic Club to get away from all the negativity.  When we have discussions that tend to polarize the membership, the harmony is at risk of breaking down.  
Often the anonymity of the web makes people meaner than they would be in person.  Many sites already exist on the web where you can go to fight about your feelings and thoughts on a variety of topics.  
I think the club should have some reasonable lines in place so that discussions don't get too nasty.
Rich

[dfung60]

Dave & The Moderation Team -  
 
Thanks for thoughtful comments and seeking the voice of the community on the moderation issue.  
 
One thread that I would reinforce in this discussion is that we come together a community because of the instruments, but often find that we are kindred travelers on a bigger scale.  This is why some of these political hot-button issues pop up - because it's part of the fabric of the world we live in, even though we stake out many different viewpoints.
 
Since bits are free, may I suggest that you consider adding another Forum area - perhaps Social Discussions or the like?  This should bring the best of both worlds - a sandbox of sorts where we can touch on these political/social issues and thrash to our hearts content, with our comrades but in a place that's easily avoidable for those who want to maintain a tighter product focus.  
 
If you need a different set of groundrules and moderation guidelines there, so be it. Short of the kinds of personal attacks and hate speak that infrequently crop up, it can be more no holds barred.  The Wild West, or perhaps more like Height Street, 1966.  If something pops up in one of the mainstream forums that needs to move, then that can happen too, just like a serial number request here will be redirected.
 
I don't know if I really believe that this would be a best of all worlds (we're in Alembic group because we don't believe in compromise, right?), but I do think this might be worth a try.
 
Best regards,
 
David Fung

[mike13]

Great idea David Fung don'nt let the politcal crap  
polute the great Alembic name!!!!!

[sonicus]

I take great enjoyment in the privilege of being able to participate in this Alembic Club /Forum .  Although I have only been an Alembic Club  participant on the internet for about a year now I have very fond memories  of Alembic while  I was a local kid growing up in San Francisco. I remember the 280 Judah St, and the   in particular the 60 Brady St. locations . As a young local Musician and later a young local Audio Engineering  student at the  College for Recording Arts in the 1970's I was an  Alembic advocate to bring Alembic's  Active  technology into the recording studio class room by presenting it to my  teacher;  Mr. Leo De Gar Kulka. ( he was quite fascinated by it ).  
 
            Besides the Alembic Club  I am also a member of another forum called the Ampex List  this  is a technical forum relating primarily to Ampex recording equipment . One of our rules are to try and have Ampex content in our posts and answers. In the Ampex  List we have a separate area to post most any other type of issues or thoughts ; we call this area The Back Room .   I  would agree as to what with  Mr. Fung has stated as well and consider adding another  Forum  area   for such  discussions. In our profile edit section  area we would then be able to make our own personnel adjustments as to what email topics we choose to receive.
 
        Sonic Regards and Love ___________
 
                                                                          Wolf

[jacko]

Most of my thoughts have been expressed above so I'll keep it short. I believe any subject should be open for discussion in the Misc section so long as it's kept civil. Any thread that devolves into a slagging match should be locked by the mods straightaway.  
 
Graeme

[bracheen]

I agree with most of the above.  Misc. should be open as long as it's done with respect and stays civil.  I've posted in anger in the past on occasion but even in those I've reviewed the post before hitting the button.  This is a great place to hang out and great people to hang with.  
 
Sam

[dadabass2001]

I think my feelings are well covered by Jazzy, Bill, Jacko, et al. I truly appreciate this forum, and return several times a week because I feel comfortable here. I worked in Public Access TV for most of my life, and found that Free Speech and civility can coexist, even in a close community.
 
Mike

[the_mule]

When I visit the Alembic Club I?m not looking for political discussions, or in fact any other discussion that doesn?t involve Alembic, musical instruments, artists and/or music. In my experience one just can't win a political or religious discussion because they're not based on facts but on opinions, so unfortunately you'll find that on many occasions everyone loses in the end.  
 
Another factor to consider is that although Alembic is an American company, and the majority of Club members is American, the Alembic Club is a global community, simply because Alembic has a worldwide fan base and posters hail from all over the globe. I've seen many political topics go downhill and hit rock bottom because this simple fact isn't taken into account.
 
So my vote goes to a social discussions subforum under Misc. which I can avoid like the plague, and a complete ban of such topics in the other forums.
 
Wilfred

[serialnumber12]

Political Views Belong Here... http://www.bing.com/search?q=political%20forums&mkt=en-us&FORM=TOOLBR&DI=6244&CE=14.0&CM=SearchWeb

[jedisan]

By virtue of all that is Alembic, most of us are respectful and courteous of each other. Because of this, I think a sub-forum for anything social would be a great idea. I know I can often learn something new from some else's opinion.

[hydrargyrum]

I'm concerned that a social discussion section will fail to be self contained, and that there will be a potential for hard feelings to escape into other areas of the forum.  I'm also a little disappointed that there is so much censoring going on, even before anything nasty or hurtful has been said.  I didn't see James post before it was edited, but I really have a hard time imagining that his opinion regarding a concert would be enough to put me in a rage.  And the topic seems to me to be relevant to the interests of a bunch of musicians, steering well clear of any of the previously mentioned trouble areas.  In the end I side with those calling for a subforum.  
 
You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time

[mikedm]

To the Club,
 
As a benefactor of the Wickershams hospitality in creating this site, I usually keep quiet about this kind of stuff. But I have a few questions for all to consider.
 
The moderators? proposition is to allow a variety of new topics, not just politics.
What will be the basis of determining acceptable topics and who decides what?s acceptable?
So, is it reasonable to admit a few new topics and exclude others?
How open is everyone to threads regarding religion, life-choices, abortion, racial issues, etc.?
How can anyone anticipate what another would consider inflammatory?
 
I don?t consider the idea of including new topics as risky as how the threads may develop. As an originator of a thread, are you prepared to facilitate/moderate the discussion you instigated? That should be more than a consideration; it?s an implied responsibility.
 
I enjoy the variety of insight and helpfulness I find in this community. I just wanted to inject my thoughts.
 
Dave,
 
As stated many times by members, new and seasoned, this site is unique in tone and hospitality. It?s worth maintaining. I?ve always considered the Miscellaneous section the place for odd, humorous and relatively benign chatter. Currently, my preference is to continue with the posted guidelines and keep the Alembic Club related to Alembic and music.
 
Respectfully,
Mike

[David Houck]

(Sorry to jump in, I just wanted to clear up a couple points.)
 
- With the increase in moderators there has been an increase in editing for copyright issues, which probably accounts for a good amount of what people are noticing as an increase in censoring.  I would imagine that most would agree that we would not want to put our hosts into any kind of situation where they might have to incur the cost of a lawsuit.
 
- Kevin; I am the moderator that edited James' post.  It has been, and continues to be, my view that when the moderators can avoid calling out a member in public, they should do so.  Each of us has different views of what is acceptable behavior, so it can be understandable that what one person thinks is ok to post on a public forum, someone else might find quite objectionable.  This site is owned and hosted my two women, whom I happen to admire and respect; several members here are women; several members here are teenagers; and there are of course many visitors here who do not post and are not members but do read the threads.  There were two posts on our board recently that I personally found objectionable; and I edited them fairly quickly so that others might not see the objectionable parts.  And I did not state my reason for the edit in the post because I did not want to call the member out in public.  The first that comes to mind referred to a 'mother I would like to f*** and her two daughters'.  The second referred to 'passing a drunk barmaid around a biker bar'.  Again, some of you may find this perfectly acceptable, this may be the way you talk all the time around your mother and your daughters.  But I don't think it acceptable to talk this way around the women, or for that matter the fathers, here at the Alembic forum.  So yes, I edited those posts.  While such comments may be acceptable for some, they are not acceptable to me; and I will edit them fairly quickly.  I do generally email the member first, explaining my objections and giving them a chance to edit the post themselves; but I don't like leaving stuff like that on the board for long and will generally try to move quickly to edit.
 
Just wanted to make those two observations; please carry on with the discussion.  There have been a lot of opinions expressed and ideas put forward; and it has been very helpful.

[bsee]

I am strongly against an expansion of discussion here to include those social and political discussions that we've  always tried to avoid. No matter how you try to keep them respectful, there's always the risk that they spin out of control. Since this should be a place of harmony, divisive topics will bring no benefit to this site.  
 
If it must happen, then the idea of a separate forum for it would be preferred, but I would carry it one step further. Let someone create a Yahoo group, or the equivalent, for such discussions among the friends of Alembic. In that way, it would be entirely optional, it would not impact the atmosphere here, and the opinions presented in such discussions would not reflect badly on Alembic as a company. You could put a link to the off-site forum in the guidelines where you prohibit such discussions here. You might also mention it in threads where you have to moderate for those who forget the rules.
 
For me, it seems obvious that there is no benefit to Alembic that could come from political discussion on their corporate website. That should be the largest factor in deciding a course of action.
 
-bob

[hydrargyrum]

Dave,
 
Enough said.  That falls more than a little wide of my definition of a concert review, and I would have done the same.
 
I don't want election politics, abortion, racism, or any other nasty topic to become the standard fare here.  If Alembic does create such a subforum, then it is my intention to never post on it.  I apologize to Dave for jumping to conclusions, and it only serves to remind me that I'm probably better off just lurking, rather than posting.