Author Topic: The Dragon's Wing  (Read 2482 times)

bob

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2006, 12:43:27 PM »
Roger, I wouldn't start over from scratch - in particular, don't remove the strings, relax the truss rods completely, etc.
 
The object is to let things stabilize, zeroing in with small adjustments until they are needed very infrequently. It seems you already got surprisingly close to that, with only a couple of bad days, right? Just continue the same process, while recording an extra bit of information that many of us believe to be highly relevant.
 
As I recall, you do like your action extremely low, and I think Steve's comments about that are spot-on. If you're always right on the edge, you may have to tweak it a bit more often (though it would still be nice to understand why). How does the relief and string height compare to your other basses?
 
Are radiators on the wall the old steam radiators (usually on the floor over here), or some newer style of radiant heat?

rogertvr

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2006, 02:30:33 PM »
I never was brilliant at explaining what I really meant!
 
Bob - what I really meant was that I would start over with the measurements. I'll leave the bass set as it is now and record everything from that point onwards. Although as it stands at the moment, nothing is going to get done for a few  days as I've injured my foot and I can hardly walk.
 
As for low action - yes, I like it low (so to speak). In fact, I sometimes have to tweak the graphite basses just a little as they will rattle a little too much but they're still playable - just a tolerance sort of thing going on there. So I have no problem with the odd tweak here and there (as required) with any of my instruments. What I do have a problem with is this bass going from sweet to strings lying on frets in the space of - quite literally - 3 or 4 hours.
 
Now - I do run them lower than a low thing and I appreciate that at that sort of tolerance, the slightest change will manifest itself. But to go from low-sweet to low-strings-on-frets (4th fret to 14th fret) in 3 hours is just TOO MUCH!!!
 
An aside here (just for the sake of a story to lighten the moment), a conversation I had in passing with a guy I worked with for a while a couple of years ago. This is an interesting one this, even though it doesn't relate to the DW in any way.
 
He owned a few basses, most notably a pre-CBS vintage Precision, a 4001 (1980 - same as mine) and a Jaydee Mark King Supernatural (I also owned one at the time). I bought my Jaydee because I played a pre-owned one in a music shop and, to this day, it was the lowest action and sweetest playing bass I have ever laid hands on.
 
The one I got after I had ordered it new was horrible. I like the action on my basses in the 0.7mm to 0.8mm range (except my 4001 which doesn't go that low) and the best the Jaydee could do was 2.5mm.  The guy I was working with reckoned his Jaydee was well low, and reported back with an action at - you've guessed it - 2.5mm. I told him my 4001 was 1.4mm, and the DW & Status basses were about 0.75mm. He asked me if they actually play!
 
Which of course they do (stability aside)!
 
It's been a good time of the year for me to do this exercise with DW. I have blue tits nesting right outside my music room window, so I've banned myself from playing using my amplifiers since they started nesting a month or so ago and the ban is running until the young birds fledge and leave my property. It's costing me a small fortune in mealworms though as the blue tits, robins and starlings are all searching for food so I like to help if I can. I feel like an anxious parent!
 
Still, it's given me chance to get some camcorder footage of the birds that normally there would be no chance of obtaining! Life isn't all about moving necks on bass guitars!

David Houck

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« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2006, 07:56:08 PM »
Cool story about the birds!

dfung60

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« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2006, 09:20:06 PM »
It's been interesting watching this thread blossom over time.  The action you're aiming for is very low, and it seems to me that you may be suffering from the unfortunate confluence of a neck which is more sensitive to environmental conditions as well.  
 
If you have seen John Entwistle's book Bass Culture which documents many of the instruments in his collection along with notes, you'll see that he (also famous for playing with low action) had many of his Alembics and Buzzards built with graphite necks (by Modulus) so he would have any chance of maintaining a playable instrument on the road.  I remember visiting Modulus around the time they had received one of his prototype Warwick Buzzards to be reproduced by Modulus.  They were just getting ready to carve the neck buck (master for the graphite mold) carved to duplicate the wood neck profile and contacted his road tech to make sure it was set up properly.  They were shocked to find that it had been sent exactly as John played it, which was a virtually unplayable setup for anybody else.  You may have seen pictures of the autographed green Modulus Buzzard which was ultimately raffled off in Bass Player magazine.  This was one of the first Modulus Buzzards completed which was delivered to John as The Who tour passed through Oakland and was rejected because - if you can believe this - the action was TOO LOW (it had some non-functional neck LEDs too).  I played it when it came back to the shop and it really almost impossible for me to tell when I was fretting a string or not (I play a pretty high action, so it was totally buzz city for me).  They asked if I was interested in buying it, but it was pretty eye-blinkingly expensive (well, maybe not to Alembic folks), even at the buddy-buddy price which basically reflected the labor and material costs.  And who (should that be Who?) dares actually play a Buzzard in front of people?  
 
Wood is a natural product and even with choice selection and additional strength from laminations, you won't know how it turns out until it's done.  This neck might be fine in the hands of somebody who plays with higher action so there's not really a defect other than the issue of suitableness for the owner.
 
If this is indeed an issue of humidity (I think it's that much more than these small variations in barometric pressure), it seems to me that applying a heavy coat of wax to the fingerboard may help.  The back side of the neck is largely isolated from the environment by the varnish, but the fingerboard is totally exposed.  As the humidity (or pressure) goes up and down, it's much more likely that the fingerboard is flexing the neck, a coat of wax may reduce that effect.  I'd recommend finding a pure carnauba wax for this, as it's harder and has better sealing capabilities.  You should probably avoid waxes with silicone in them (this would be any of the easy-on auto waxes) as it makes the fingerboard blotchy looking and hard to refinish.  You can get pure carnauba wax at a woodworker's supply, or auto paint store (and yes, it will be that one can of wax that's about 3x the cost of the others).
 
Wax is easy to do.  If it helps, then you might consider having the fingerboard finished with polymerizing penetrating oil, like tung oil.  This will have the same effect but is much more durable.
 
Another thing to check it so see whether you need a fret leveling.  With tolerances so tight because of low action, you're much more susceptible to buzzing because of a high or low fret as well as localized warping.  If you have a good fret leveling performed (perhaps even have some extra relief cut into the fret tops in the middle) you may find that the climatic variations don't bug you as much.  You might try seeing whether the fret tops are really level with a straightedge when the playability is problematic.  All it takes is one high fret in the upper octaves to make for a very buzzy instrument.
 
Good luck,
 
David Fung

David Houck

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« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2006, 05:40:02 PM »
Interestingly, I had an experience last night similar to Roger's.  Yesterday was a wonderful day here with perfect temperature and humidity.  I had the windows open and tuned up my rig and got some practice in before my gig.  Loaded up, drove to the gig (in a venue that was new to us), set up and started playing.  The temperature there was nice too, and the venue had their doors open, right next to the band area.  The relative humidity must have been significantly higher, for by the third song I had terrible buzzing in the lower frets.  We took a very short break and I made a quick adjustment to the truss rods.  The bass was back to normal and the rest of the gig went great.

keavin

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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2006, 08:03:12 AM »
what i find funny & strange is that Lots & most non-alembic players as well as musicians have no Clue as-to what type of Bass it is I'm playing,and when i tell them they ask.....Wow Alembic is still in Business? I guess since alembic does not deal with guitar center any longer which is where most cats hang out in big cities, they dont see them that much,,,,,Outa sight-outa mind???

keurosix

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« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2006, 10:28:40 PM »
Roger,
when you say you like your action in the 0.7mm ~ 0.8mm range, where do you measure this? At the 12th fret? This is extremely low action and it is no wonder that your set up is affected by all sorts of things: Humidity, hand warmth, gage of string and age of string, etc. The fact that you also prefer a light gage string compounds the problem. I once had a Series 1 bass that came from the factory with medium gage flat wound strings. When I got it, I changed the strings to a medium-light gage roundwound string. I had buzzing problems, and found that the strings did not have enough tension to pull the neck concave to add a bit of relief. My truss rods were backed off, and still no relief from the string tension. It appeared that the bass was manufactured for the medium gage flatwound string in mind. Note that a medium gage flatwound string actually is a very large dense string. This string had enough tension to pull the neck and add the correct amount of relief, but the thinner roundwound string did not. I compromised by accepting a low action, but switched to a medium gage roundwound string. It was not my ideal setup, but it worked. I tend to agree with Dave fung about touching up the frets. A good tune-up by a luthier can do wonders. If you could send it back to Alembic I'm sure they could do the best to get it where you would be happy. I don't know if they could remove the fingerboard without damage to the beautiful inlay, but maybe some graphite stiffeners underneath would minimize the unwanted movement.

rogertvr

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« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2006, 03:10:06 AM »
I thought I'd add an update to the current situation with my bass.
 
I bought a hygrometer.  It's a digital one, it measures temperature and humidity.  It also records the highest and lowest readings too.
 
The weather here in the UK has been absolutely glorious since the hygrometer arrived. The temperature has been well into the 20C's, almost 30C on some days.  Humidity has been around the 40% mark.
 
The DW has been fine - no movement worth mentioning, the strings are low (I measure the action at the 24th fret - it's a little higher at the 12th fret due to a small amount of relief in the neck), there's no rattling, buzzing - it's been very well behaved.
 
I'll carry on monitoring it, the weather here is bound to go down the tubes soon, this is England after all!!  Then I can see what happens when we get back to what is more normal UK weather.
 
One thing that had entered my head is that maybe I am trying to push the instrument beyond its design capability and that if I back-off my expectations just a little, it might all settle down?

karl

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« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2006, 05:27:54 AM »
I realise that the very mention of the name Alembic automatically gives us high expectations, especially when you consider that John Entwistle apparently managed to get his Alembics to do what you are trying to get yours to do. But I have to say that the action you're striving to maintain on that bass of yours seems murderously low - I can't imagine how refined your technique must be to keep that thing under control when you're playing. I used to think my action was low, but it's nothing like that, and in fact, I've found that by raising it a touch I actually get a better tone - the string can resonate further without the frets interfering. I started out trying to emulate the (apparently) ridiculously low action of some of my heroes, but over the years, I've developed my own sound by moving away from straight aping of their technique and set-up, and I believe that's a positive step. However, I realise that if you're in a top-flight Who tribute band, then you're in a very different position - you're being paid to emulate your hero's sound and technique, and of course, having your bass set up as his was is all part of that.
It's a tricky call - on the one hand, yes, I'd say your expectations are high and you should try backing off a little and let the bass play the way it wants to, but on the other hand, if any bass should be able to meet those high expectations, an Alembic should (as John showed).
 
Do please let me know if you play out around London - I'd love to see and hear this legendary bass of yours (and the technique that goes with an action that low! :0) )!
 
Yours,
 
Karl

adriaan

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« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2006, 02:51:06 AM »
Hygrometer at 40%? That's pretty low for indoors - we're at 70% right now, with glorious summer weather in the Netherlands. Could be because we live near the coast?

s_wood

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« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2006, 04:57:53 AM »
The time of day at which one measures humidity will affect the results substantially.  At my house yesterday, the relative humidity ranged from a high of 93% to a low of 45%.  Typically, the highest readings will be observed just before sunrise (Which is usually the coolest part of the day) and the highest [lowest] readings will be observed at between 3 to 5 pm (the warmest part of the day).
 
(Message edited by davehouck on June 14, 2006)

adriaan

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« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2006, 05:19:11 AM »
I'll try and get some round-the-day readings at our appartment tomorrow - don't expect a reading just before sunrise, that just won't happen!

David Houck

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« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2006, 05:36:17 AM »
Adriaan; as a general rule working musicians do not do anything just before sunrise .

David Houck

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« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2006, 05:48:10 AM »
I watch my indoor and outdoor hygrometers throughout the day, opening and closing windows and doors as needed.  I also check weather.com to get a forcast of what the outdoor humidity is expected to do each day.  As Steve said, outdoor relative humidity can change substantially during the day; thus I use windows and doors to try to keep indoor humidity changes within a smaller range.

adriaan

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« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2006, 05:51:34 AM »
Dave; thanks for the accolade but I don't think I qualify as a working musician.
 
Working guy - yes.
Musician - debatable.