Author Topic: The Dragon's Wing  (Read 2440 times)

bigbadbill

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2006, 05:01:24 AM »
Roger, I live in Blackpool and as yet have had no problems to speak of with my Triple O in terms of neck movement. So I suspect it must be the bass itself. As I've said previously, I've had the same problem with a non-Alembic custom built bass which I just could not get to settle down; after 3 years or so I sold it.

lbpesq

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2006, 08:05:37 AM »
Shouldn't this thread be in troubleshooting instead of fun stories?  No offense, Roger, (and I do hope your neck settles down), but this doesn't sound like fun.
 
Bill, tgo

tom_z

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2006, 09:43:37 AM »
I'm not sure if a comparison to a bass with standard oval inlays (or no inlay) is fair. After all, Roger is dealing with a lot more than just ebony and maple when it comes to movement of the neck on his bass. I am not anything like an expert on how environmental factors affect the wood in a musical instrument, I usually just play defense - when something changes, I adjust the guitar. Perhaps the inlay on the surface of the fingerboard has little effect, but it seems to me that the elaborate art on the neck of Roger's bass might preclude ordinary explanations. Just a thought.
 
Peace
Tom
 
(Message edited by tom_z on May 27, 2006)
 
(Message edited by tom_z on May 27, 2006)

jalevinemd

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2006, 09:44:52 AM »
Bill,
 
I literally logged on to say the same thing. This seems like anything but 'fun.' I really feel for you Roger. My slightly obsessive personality wouldn't allow me to sleep until I had this one figured out.

jacko

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2006, 09:52:35 AM »
Roger - Just my opinion, but if it was mine it would be straight back to the mothership for treatment. No offence intended here but I doubt if you're going to reach any meaningful conclusions about humidity/atmospheric pressure without your own set of measuring equipment and i suspect you'd be happier in yourself if the problem was out of your hands.
 
George - if you are leaving your window open I'm coming across there with a big sack;-)
 
graeme

David Houck

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2006, 09:53:44 AM »
George; your bass is 30 years old and Roger's is less than three years old.  If as you say all this talk about humidity etc. really baffles you, then you may wish to read this post about wood, age, humidity, moisture, etc.  I believe that post suggests that your statement if mine is OK then most other Alembics should be OK is probably not wholly accurate.
 
Roger; depending on your heating source, the indoor humidity can be significantly different from the outdoor humidity.  I don't have air conditioning in my house, but even on a warm day, if the outdoor humidity is high, I close the windows.  My guess is that the humidity changes in your house are not necessarily the same as the humidity changes outside, and that the neck movements you are seeing are related to changes in indoor humidity.  If you take a shower and have the windows closed and don't use an exhaust fan, you will raise the indoor humidity.  If you build a fire in the fireplace, you will significantly lower the indoor humidity.  A central oil or gas heating system will signicantly reduce humidity.  (Interestingly, some indoor stand along non-vented gas stoves do not take humidity out of the air.)  If you cut the heat off and open all the windows, then the indoor humidity will be the same as the outdoor humidity; however, on a calm day it will take a while to get there, but on a windy day it will get there quickly.
 
All basses will react to changes in humidity differently; it just depends on the particular piece of wood.  But generally, the newer the bass, the more susceptible to changes in humidity and the older the bass, the less susceptible to humidity.  Many folks in this forum have reported that they make neck adjustments twice a year, in the spring and the fall, when the humidity makes a big change, since in many areas winters are dry and summers are humid.
 
So I agree with the others that you should purchase a hygrometer to monitor indoor humidity.  I have indoor and outdoor hygrometers and I monitor both constantly to make sure my basses are not subject to a sudden change in humidity.  While I can't do anything about changes in outdoor humidity, I can do things about the indoor humidity and my indoor environment is much more constant and controlled and within reasonable parameters than the outdoor environment.

David Houck

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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2006, 10:06:04 AM »
Several people have suggested giving the bass to some cargo handlers and having them toss it into the cargo hold of an airplane and then quite quickly force the instrument through some significant changes in both barometric pressure and humidity and then have some more cargo handlers toss it in a truck and deliver it half way around the world to an environment that probably differs significantly to the one that the bass calls home.  I tend to think that maybe we should run down this indoor humidity thing first before we try that.  
 
But more seriously, I'm not a luthier.  Perhaps it is indeed some kind of unusual problem with the neck; I dont' know, I'm not a luthier.  But personally, at the very least, I'ld purchase a $30 hygrometer and try that before shipping my bass around the world.

jorge_s

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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2006, 07:36:28 PM »
Atmospheric pressure influences gases.  Unless there is major amounts of gas trapped inside the wood cells I doubt that slight barometric variations would alter the neck that much.  Humidity, that is a very different story.  Here is a link that explains how atmospheric pressure influences maple sap flow if anyone finds it interesting:http://www.massmaple.org/flow.html

grynchin

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2006, 08:07:40 PM »
Humidity is going to be a huge piece to this puzzle, as has been stated.  Again, what kind of heat do you have in your house?  Wood heat is the worst.  Humidity indoors can be crazy and have damaging effects on wood.  Take hardwood floors for instance.  Have you ever seen cracked, dry, ugly floors--lack of humidity.  How about swollen, cupped, uneven, ugly floors--too much humidity.  And these floors are sanded and treated with a protective finish just like your guitar.  Except with floors you don't have to worry about intonation, string action, etc.
 
There are all sorts of hygrometers on the market.  I use a $20 hygrometer I got from Radio Shack.  It reads temperature and relative humidity.  I worry about my humidity more in the winter, because of the great lack of humidity in my home(due to low humidity outside, and the fact that my heat pump robs the humidity from the air too).  If my humidity gets low, I wake up with a dry and sore throat, I am prone to nose bleeds, and have more sinus problems.
 
I have mixed emotions about hygrometers.  I prefer to keep them in one spot.  They can be very slow to changes in humidity.  If you had it indoors and humidity was 40%, then took it outside and humidity was at 90%, it probably would not pick up the change for a good while.  So you can forget about taking all over the house and outside and trying to get a bunch of readings all at once.  Keep it in one spot, right beside your beloved DW.  Monitor it several times daily.  I have always heard that for a guitar the humidity should be at least 35% and no more than 55%.
 
Do you oil your fingerboard regularly, at all, or never?

jorge_s

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« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2006, 09:36:20 PM »
In my shop I keep this hygrometer:http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?searchtext=gift&Submit=Search&NameProdHeader=Hygrometer
It is so sensitive that it detects changes in humidity between rooms.  It reacts instantaneously.

bob

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« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2006, 09:54:10 PM »
Looks great, but at US$150 perhaps a bit more than Roger really needs at the moment?
 
I'm convinced that indoor humidity is the culprit here - not strings, not inlays, not a manufacturing defect, not atmospheric pressure, not the way Roger looks at it in the morning when he wakes up.
 
Roger, please pick up a modestly priced hygrometer, something that is accurate within about 5%, place it next to your bass, and add it to your recording regimen. And again, what type of heat do you have, and would you please post some numbers on your relief and string height?

georgie_boy

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« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2006, 02:40:39 AM »
Thanks Dave for the thread on moisture and woods.
It really taught me a few things that I, and probably many other owners didn't realise.Makes me feel a bit of a geek to have put my$0.02 woth in when really, I didn't know all that much on the subject. Suppose in a round about way I was just trying to help sove Roger's problem by eliminating one of the factors. I stand humbly corrected!!
 
Graeme------windows now closed!!!!!
 
george

s_wood

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« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2006, 09:21:50 AM »
Here's another vote for humidity changes as being the culprit here.  I live in Delaware, in the the Mid-Atlantic region of the USA.  According to my home weather station (ok, I admit it, I am a weather geek) the relative humidity in my house has ranged from 5% to 61% this year. That's a lot of moisture soaking into, and being sucked out of, the cells that make of the wood in my basses!
 
Roger, you mentioned that your house is centrally heated, which is great for human comfort and awful for basses.  Forced air heat is particularly awful as the relative humidity of air will drop when it is heated (assuming that your heater, like most) is not designed to add moisture in the process).     It is common for the relative humidity in a building with forced air heat to hover in range of 20% - 30%.  Contrast that with average relative humidity in London, which ranges from the 70% -75% or more in the winter to 55-65% in the summer.  The swing between indoor (central heat) humidity and outdoor (real) humidity is often most problematic in the spring, when we begin to open our windows and let the outside air inside.  Your basses have been living in dry air (perhaps 25%-30% relative humidity all winter long, and all of a sudden the air becomes moist (55%-60% RH).  That's why I call the spring truss rod time.  Similar problems can crop up in the summer if you live in a part of the world that is influenced by maritime air (which is quite moist) and where central air conditioning is common (like the US East and Gulf coasts), especially if you keep you basses inside where it is cool and dry and sometimes gig outdoors where the relative humidity is quite high.      
 
Are Alembics more susceptible to neck movement than some other basses as a consequence of seasonal changes in humidity?  In my experience, the answer is yes, but to a very minor degree.  Every season I need to tweak my truss rods by perhaps 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, but NEVER MORE THAN THAT.  I have some other basses that don't seem to move at all. I have no idea why that is so, but to me it is a big so what because the process of tweaking the truss rod takes me maybe 5 mintues twice a year.  Once I make the seasonal adjustments (at the beginning and end of the heating season) my Alembics are very, very stable throughout the year (unless I play an outside gig in the very humid summer months).  
 
However, that's really not the issue here.  I have found one is more likely to notice fret buzzes as a consequence of a little bit of neck movement due to seasonal humidity swings on an Alembic because they are so well built that it's possible to set them up with much lower action than other basses will tolerate, and that's what we often do.  
If you set your basses up with a standard amount of relief (say, .015 as measured at the 9th fret) and medium action (say, 3/16 on the B or E string at the 24th fret) you may never notice the relatively small changes in neck relief due seasonal humidity swings.  If you like lower action than that, or less neck relief (i.e. Entwistle action) you will notice the buzzes        caused by humidity changes, but it's also true that most basses (other than Alembics) are not capable of action that low in the first place.  
 
It's kind of a one of those good news/bad news dichotomies...the good news is that Alembics are capable of super-low action, and the bad news is that set-ups with super-low action are more likely to require regular maintenance as a result of seasonal changes in humidity. I'll bet that once you get the hang of the careful and incremental adjustments necessary to properly set up your bass, as explained above, your bass will be quite stable and only require tweaking in the spring and fall.
 
(Message edited by s_wood on May 28, 2006)

rogertvr

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« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2006, 09:37:47 AM »
If only I could agree with s_wood...
 
Everything written applies completely to every other bass I own except the DW. The graphite basses need a 1/4 turn on the truss rod in the spring and then 1/4 in the opposite direction in the autumn. Job done.  My 4001 never seems to move at all but that is getting on in life a little now  ;-)
 
Regarding the heating in my house - it's centrally heated but it's not forced air.  It's just radiators on the wall. I appreciate that the air probably is drier than the air outside, judging by the amount of hand cream I get through to stop my hands cracking.
 
I could live with the DW if it was the odd adjustment here and there and it happened every now and again. But for something to change within the space of a few hours from sweet to unplayable is unacceptable.
 
I'm going to try and get hold of a hygrometer and start the process again from scratch. Then I'll start posting actual measurements and see if any of you kind folk can shed any more light on the subject. Expect this process to take a few more weeks at least.
 
Incidentally, the reason I started this thread in the Fun Stories section can be summed-up with one word. Irony.

keith_h

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The Dragon's Wing
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2006, 09:57:36 AM »
Irony. Isn't that like goldy or silvery? Sorry I couldn't resist.  
 
Keith