Author Topic: The Dragon's Wing (Read 2416 times)

rogertvr · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2006, 10:06:15 AM »

I like light strings :-)

It was initially set for 40-60-80-100. Which I left on for some time once I got it home. The were Alembic strings, it had the same problems with those strings too.

Incidentally, if I do take the strings off and remove the tension from the truss rods, when I want to start setting it up again, how do I go about it? I've never had to do it before. Do I:-
1). Tension the rods up and then tune the strings
2). Tune the strings and then tension the rods
3). Both strings and rods together, a small amount at a time?

olieoliver · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2006, 10:27:23 AM »

When I make any truss rod adjustments I always do it in small increments. i.e. less than I think it will need. I wait anywhere from 2 days to a week and recheck the bass/guitar to see if it needs any more adjustments. I never try to rush or force the neck, I let the wood react naturally to the string and rod tension.
The humidity may be a factor but remember the wood is sealed with a hard finish. I think that tempature would be more of a factor than humidity. Either would have to be pretty drastic changes.
I always adjust mine with the bass/guitar in tune. And I never make more than a 1/4 turn on the truss either direction with each adjustment. If it needs more after the wood has settled I will then adjust it more.

palembic · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2006, 10:49:48 AM »

Brother Roger!
I suggest we page Doctor Joey!
No offence to other skilled set-up brothers in this area but he wrote the most comprehensive thread about it ever!
I bet Moder Dave can find it somewhere!

Paul TBO

bob · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2006, 11:44:36 AM »

I think a more structured approach is a good idea, Rog, but I'm not convinced you need to be quite so extreme.

I do believe that full turn adjustments are contributing to your problem. Even half is a lot, better if you don't go more than a quarter turn a day - but if you do, then it should definitely sit for a while.

The light strings might be something of a factor, in that you would also need less truss rod tension to counteract them. However, it seems to me that Alembic strives to set up the instruments in a way that minimizes the need for a lot of truss rod tension. Since yours was originally set for 40-100, you probably aren't that much different at 35-95, so I would not be inclined to worry about this too much.

I think that removing the strings and all tension is more than you want to do. If you think about it, you will once again be forcing the wood to go through more extreme changes.

Instead, I would just adjust the neck to where it feels pretty close to right. If necessary, do this over the course of a few days, never more than 1/4 turn at a time. Don't play it. Record temp and humidity (humidity is more likely the culprit), as well as the adjustments you've made, and continue measuring relief (and further adjusting if needed), over the course of a week or two.

That should give you some useful trend information. I'm still hopeful that, as in many areas, moderation is the key :-)
-Bob

rogertvr · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2006, 12:16:55 PM »

The project is on. Hopefully time and more patience will be a healer!

Thanks for everyone's suggestions and advice thus far. Please keep anything useful coming!

gare · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2006, 01:52:42 PM »

Rog..here's the link to Joeys setup info from FAQ's..
http://club.alembic.com/Images/16271/16318.html?1107545767
The only thing I add to his procedure is to let it set overnite after adjusting, then check to see if it's moved.
Good luck
Gary

ajdover · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2006, 11:31:45 PM »

Roger,

I would tell you from experience that you will have more problems getting the action you want due to the fact that you use very light gauge strings. I say this because I use .40-.100 DRs, and they give me fits, regardless of bass (and I own Fenders, Gibsons, Rickenbackers, Peavey, Pedulla, and yes, Alembics). Why do I say this?

Most manufacturers (from what I understand, anyway) set their basses up with .45-.105 strings (four string basses). Their instruments are primarily designed with that in mind. I've found that if you go with heavier gauges, it's not much of a problem. However, if you go with lighter gauges, it is. I'm not sure of the reason, but I think it's just basic physics. The simple fact is that if you use lighter gauges, there simply isn't enough tension in the string to pull the neck forward, and hence, the strings have nowhere else to go but against the frets, causing buzz. I know this since I've had trouble getting the Essence I have here in Iraq to behave. I attribute some of this due to the weather here (it can be extremely hot and humid, and when it rains, it cools considerably), but also to the fact that I use light gauge strings. This has also been my experience in the U.S., in North Carolina, where the temperature can be both humid and hot, as well as cool when it rains.

As I understand it, you like an Entwistle type action on your instruments, e.g., very low. For this type of set up to work, a light touch is a must. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know already, but mention it only because I've experienced the same problem. I tend to put my right hand closer to the bridge, and I tend also to dig in quite a bit. I find that placing my hand here mitigates the buzzing of the strings simply because the tension is greater, and there is less tendency for the string to vibrate against the frets, causing buzz. When I move my right hand closer to the neck, just the opposite is true; the string begins hitting the frets due to the lowered string tension, and has more of a tendency to buzz. However, this can be useful. Stanley Clarke does just this, and he gets some really neat tones out of his instruments.

What I'd recommend is following Joey's method - quite simply put, it works. You will need feeler gauges and a capo at a minimum; a ruler or string height gauge are useful as well. I bought my feeler gauges at a hardware store, but you can also buy them at www.stew-mac.com. Same goes for the string height gauge. Also, Dan Erlewine has some great books and DVDs on the subject of guitar repair and setup; I got the DVDs, and they are a godsend. Also available via Stew-Mac.

You will, as others have noted, have to give the neck time to adjust after making your changes. The advice about letting it sit a day or two is a good one, and it works. Again, this has been my experience with all my basses, regardless of marque.

I hope you can get things right and get the DW playing the way you want it. Let us know how it goes, and best of luck.

Best regards,

Alan

jacko · « **Reply #22 on:** April 19, 2006, 01:11:10 AM »

Hi Roger.
Can't add much to this other than to wish you luck and hope this gets sorted. FWIW, I've had my rogue in Scotland for 14 months now and only had to adjust the truss rods once in that time and I suspect we get even more 'humidity' up here than most.

Graeme

adriaan · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2006, 04:27:42 AM »

I wonder how come this thread was started in the Fun Stories section?

David Houck · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2006, 04:46:41 AM »

Adriaan wrote: I wonder how come.
Hee hee; now where did you pick that up??!!

adriaan · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2006, 05:01:42 AM »

That's about as much jive speak as I can muster.

David Houck · « **Reply #26 on:** April 19, 2006, 01:47:43 PM »

A thought occurred to me, and I may be way off base here, but I thought I would throw it out for discussion. I can't recall what kind of stand Roger uses, if he's ever mentioned it, but if it's one of those stands where the bass hangs by its headstock, then, if the bass has a super thin neck, and a heavy body, and low tension strings, then, could hanging by the headstock have some effect on the neck?

adriaan · « **Reply #27 on:** April 19, 2006, 02:31:06 PM »

I was thinking the same - my Spoiler was acting up with the recent rise in temperature, with averages now over 10 degrees Celsius, which was producing extra rattle on the G string.

The fretless Epic hanging next to it didn't have the same symptoms, but then again it's setup differently - and of course it has no frets to speak of.

bigredbass · « **Reply #28 on:** April 19, 2006, 03:02:54 PM »

If it were me, I know how I would approach this. I would only say that your brain can REALLY get into a failure loop, cris-crossing back through many adjustments IF you're not writing down your changes as you search for the right combination.

Since Roger and Mica are working through this, I would not choose to muddy the water at this time.

J o e y

PS After turning ALL of my basses into LOGS at one time or another while trying to learn this, I COMPLETELY understand Roger's utter frustration, I've BEEN THERE ! ! !

(Message edited by bigredbass on April 19, 2006)

rogertvr · « **Reply #29 on:** April 20, 2006, 12:05:05 AM »

It's on a QuikLok QL691 stand - the fully adjustable stand that fits any bizarrely-shaped instrument. So it's not hung by the headstock.

Mica has made some great suggestions to me, I have created a form to log everything I can think of that is useful. I need to fit it in around my new business which is taking a lot of my time, so it's going to be a process of a few weeks as opposed to days I suspect. Perhaps that's not a bad thing though...