Author Topic: Alembic Value  (Read 1315 times)

rockbassist

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Alembic Value
« on: April 01, 2007, 08:01:34 PM »
I have a question. I am not trying to criticize Alembic and I do understand supply and demand economics. A couple of years ago, I was looking to trade my Musicman Stingray 5 string for something more upscale. I went to the closest guitar store to my house which happened to be a Guitar Center which was 1 hour away. I figured tha since I was in Massachusetts that I would find a Pedulla, Modulus or Zon. Instead I found a beautiful Epic 5 string. It has a walnut top, mahogony body, MXY56 activators and the 5 piece maple neck. It also has an ebony finger board, the raised brass script logo, raised brass logo, crescent tail piece, and some other things that are not on the basic for retail Epic bass. With all apologies to Series and other higher end users, I think this is the most perfect bass ever built. I love the weight, shape, playability and tone. (Although I might add a filter) My question is why is it that in order to buy this bass from Alembic it would easily cost over $5,000 yet used it is less than 1/4 that price. I have had 1970's Fender Precision and Jazz basses that held their value better. You would think that given the history of great players such as John Entwistle having played Alembic that these basses would hold there value better thna other boutique basses? There are even some Series basses on ebay for less than $3,000. I wouldn't sell my Epic for $10,000 yet I see used ones for $1,200.  What are your thougts.

adriaan

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Alembic Value
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2007, 01:10:19 AM »
Congrats on buying a great bass!
 
What you mention is an old problem with ANY instrument that has not come off an industrial assembly line: they very rarely hold the price you pay for them new.
 
When you say quote:and some other things that are not on the basic for retail Epic bass - note that actually all the details that you mentioned before that are standard on an Epic. That is the quality that leads to a high retail price.

terryc

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Alembic Value
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2007, 01:46:11 AM »
I paid $1800 for my MK standard in 1998 from Rudy's Music Stop, it was immaculate bar a slight dent in the body..brought it back to the UK and was approached by a man in a pub who offered me ?2000 for it. They are very expensive over here even second hand but I gather you can get them for silly money in the states.
Old fenders..well say no more especially pre CBS

ajdover

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Alembic Value
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2007, 03:08:36 AM »
Keep in mind that when you use the quote generator on the website you are generating a retail price, e.g., what the bass would cost if you purchased directly from the factory.  If you go through a dealer, there are discounts applied that will lower the cost quite a bit.
 
As far as holding value, Alembic is not as well known a brand as a Fender.  Fender was the original electric bass, has been around for over fifty years, so it's not surprising that these are more collectible/desirable in the eyes of many.  They're just better known, not necessarily aesthetically or otherwise better.
 
What I've noted about used Alembics is yeah, they take a hit in value, but rarely will you see one fall below a certain price point, e.g., I've yet to see an Epic go for less than $900 used, or an Essence 4 less than $1100.  What Alembics do is hold their value at a certain price point, which is why a lot of folks buy them used.  They allow the original owner to absorb the depreciation, then they buy the instrument used (and most tend to be in mint to near mint condition from what I've seen) at what in many cases is half or less of the original cost.  
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again - no bass is worth more than you're willing to pay regardless of make.  If that vintage Fender is worth $10K to you, than it's worth it.  To me, an Alembic is worth every penny, regardless of cost.
 
I have vintage Fenders, Gibsons, Musicmans, etc.  I love them all for different reasons, but I can say from experience that they're just not in the same league as an Alembic from a quality and versatility standpoint.  Are they worth as much as the Alembic money wise?  Well, certainly, I could probably sell my '73 Jazz for at least $2K, maybe more (it has the black blocks, etc.).  Same goes for my '79 Stingray,  
70's Rick 4001s, etc.  But none of them comes close from a craftsmanship and quality point of view.  
 
That's the value of Alembic - world class quality, workmanship, attention to detail, and customer service after the sale (and I've been more than pleased with their after the sale support - they replaced a jack and circuit board on my Europa at no cost when there was a problem, and also took care of a finish problem that didn't appear until the bass had some time to age a bit after I bought it).  Fenders, even the ones that come out of the Custom Shop don't even come close.  I'm sure they're fine instruments, but IMHO they're not in the same league.  At the risk of sounding philosophical, when you buy an Alembic, you're buying more than an instrument.  You're buying the extension of the idea and belief what an electric guitar or bass should be, look like, sound like, feel like.  That idea embraces quality above quantity; handmade vs. machine made; custom vs. mass produced; small family owned company vs. mega manufacturer; small quantities produced vs. large quantities produced.  All of this conspires to drive prices up.  Alembic has to do this to maintain the extremely high standard they've set for themselves.  They cannot survive by offering bargain basement prices for world class instruments.  What this means is that the cost is passed on to the consumer, but that same consumer receives a world class, second-to-none, superlative quality instrument.  To me, the price justifies the end result.
 
My two cents,
 
Alan

keavin

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Alembic Value
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2007, 04:19:36 AM »
In the 70's alembic was known as the $2,000 bass,so depending on the seller (who doesn't have a blue book handy) if he sees the name Alembic on a bass he's gonna automaticaly jack up the price with out knowing which alembic model he has or if it's a real one,I've seen one of those Cheap alembic copys (the ones with bolt on necks & P-Bass pickups)at a pawnshop for $2,000 & some body Bought the damn thing!

kmh364

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Alembic Value
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2007, 06:09:23 AM »
I've whined about this subject ad naseum here on the Club, especially with regards to MSRP and discounts available from same VS. resale value. Regardless, even the resident site cheapskate realizes that YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
 
Personally, I don't sell my stuff...anything I've ever bought that's good, I still have...so while it's great to get a used Alembic for a steal, no one else is likely to benefit from my original owner hit on resale value.
 
AFAIC, let the masses eat cake: I'll play my Alembics, and they can have all the overpriced vintage Fenders they want. That leaves more Alembics for those of us that appreciate the difference.
 
Cheers,
 
Kevin

bigredbass

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Alembic Value
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 06:53:08 AM »
I'm not nearly as confused by a $6k Alembic selling for $1500 used as I am by a Fender that retailed for $500 in the sixties selling for $20k now.  Even more confusing to pay Alembic prices for current Fender Custom Shop pieces.
 
I look at Fenders as D-I-Y instruments:  You screw one together.  Home Depot should sell them. Past hot-rodding a Squier or Mexican Fender, I'd just call Warmoth.  Everybody and his uncle makes hot-rod parts.  Why would I give Sadowsky or Mike Lull, etc., LOTS of money for something I can do myself?  Warmoth sells them painted and even mounted with a roughed-in nut in wood combos to your taste.  And there's more places than Warmoth to do the same thing.
 
It's the vagaries of the used market, driven by lots of different reasons.  I'm not complaining as it's made used Alembics affordable for folks who might never get one otherwise.  This in turn brings them in to our community, and a lot of them later make a way to buy a new one.  It's also great for me in that I love old Japanese instruments:  Since they're way under-valued in the used market, I've stolen several.
 
That's where cost vs. value comes in.  Guitar Center / Blue Book / 'The Market' says Rockbassist's Epic COSTS $1200 used.  Any objective person would think hand-production, exceptional wood, and world-class electronics would be WORTH more than a new StingRay Five, which COSTS the same thing.  These comparisons happen in any market for all products.  And customers vote with their wallet.
 
So in most cases, the used market baffles me, but I'm not complaining for under-valuing everything I like.  I always say:  PLEASE keep paying those nosebleed prices for Fenders so I can keep stealing my rice-burners ! !

lbpesq

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Alembic Value
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2007, 07:11:33 AM »
Alan:
 
About 6 months ago I found a five string Epic - superb walnut top - on craigslist for $650!  I grabbed it (filthy, missing one knob, but otherwise no problms) and sold it to my bass player for the same price.    
 
Why do Alembics lose a lot of their value?  I don't know, but did you ever notice that Rolls Royce is very similar in this regard?  You can get a used Rolls for quite a bit less than new.  But it still kicks ass on the '57 Chevy collector car
 
Bill, tgo
 
(Message edited by lbpesq on April 02, 2007)

tubeperson

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Alembic Value
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2007, 07:37:28 AM »
The value isue is similar for many luxury item i.e. boats, cars, audiophile stereo equipment etc.  The person that buys these new is willing to pay a premium for the snob effect.  Snob is not meant here as a negative, hell I own 4 Alembics and Marantz tubed equipment from the 50's, and very few people feel I am a snob about anything execpt for coffee. Rather it is the euphoria from being able to buy new exotic and expensive items first.
 
What that also means is that these same buyers are willing to move their merchandise quickly when the next new item comes along.
 
This dementia is simialr to the vintage market; imagine $300,000 for a Gibson Les Paul?  Or any premium for an instrument played by Carlos Alomar, or any known musician (what is it the sweat, the cigarette burns?) What cracks me up about the current vintage market is that it seems there are more pre-CBS bassess now than there were actually made. If Fender can make relics, so can others.
 
My vote find whatever you like, especially but not necessarily limited to Alembics!

dannobasso

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Alembic Value
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2007, 08:14:24 AM »
Its not just a bass (or guitar), its a lifestyle! I love em' and have paid all kinds of prices new and used. I have only used the resale argument when I was trying to convince people I wasn't insane and could sell them if I had to to survive. (not gonna happen) I try not to dwell on the sway of the market forces. Carpe Diem and Caviat Emptor!  
(i appologize in advance to the mj enlightened Latin scholors for any spelling infraction)

olieoliver

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Alembic Value
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2007, 08:30:22 AM »
To further elaborate on Bill?s car analogy; I know a guy that purchased a new Corvette a few months ago for a little over $53K. He totaled it one month to the day after buying it. His insurance settled the claim for $48K.  10% depreciation in one month is not a good return on your money. But you know what, he turned around and bought another Corvette.

bsee

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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2007, 11:02:38 AM »
The odd thing is that Alembic is primarily known for their basses, but the guitars seem to hold value better.  Maybe it's just that there aren't any fifteen year old Persuader-class guitars out there, but you almost never get your hands on any Alembic guitar for under $2K these days.
 
If you buy a new Alembic, you better know what you're after because you'll lose your shirt if you make a mistake on the order and decide to sell.  On the other hand, a used Alembic has been a pretty safe buy compared to a lot of other instruments out there.
 
It is what it is.  Understand it.  Accept it.  Act accordingly.
 
-bob

bracheen

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Alembic Value
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2007, 11:47:24 AM »
I understand and accept. I'm not complaining.  I'm right there with Joey on that. My '94 Epic cost me around $780 in 2003.    
 
Sam

FC Bass

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Alembic Value
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2007, 12:02:55 PM »
True, but most Alembic guitars offered I saw were series instruments...
I opened a new bankaccount and started saving $$$ for my custom Elan, I'm sure it will be worth every penny (+/-$7500)
I've paid 1300 euro's for my Spoilers (1300 each) :-)
According to the Quote generator these basses will also be $7000+ new
Best investments I ever did regarding bass gear. I also bought a Spoiler for 1100 euro's on ebay and later on swapped it for a Gibson Ripper, the worst decision I ever made regarding bass gear... (the Gibson was nice though, but not great like the Alembic)
I believe the dealer discount doesn't apply overseas? (on this side of the huge pile of water)
 
Cheerz!
Flip
 
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glocke

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Alembic Value
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2007, 01:54:45 PM »
depreciation on anything new is par for the course..if you buy a used alembic, if you need to sell it, you will more than likely get your money back out of it if you need to sell it...
 
IMO, Alembics are worth every penny, wheter you buy them used or new...They truly are one of a kind in terms of craftsmanship, looks, and tone...
Ive played a few higher end basses (Smiths, Warwicks ), and while they sounded good, they just did not have the clarity, cleanliness and wide range of tones that alembics have...
 
The things I dont get are the thousands of dollars that people pay for vintage jazz basses...I own two (64 and a 72), that have doubled in value since Ive owned them..>While they sound allright, I dont think they are worth the $$$$...
 
Firearms are this way also, I collect military surplus weapons (yes, I am a gun nut also), and you guys would be AMAZED at what some people, (including my self) pay for some stuff