Author Topic: Alembic Value  (Read 1272 times)

inthelows

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Alembic Value
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2007, 06:20:35 PM »
Like so many things Beauty as well true value is in the eye of the beholder.
If you've got the scratch and can afford it I'm pretty sure you're gonna buy it. Why. who knows? Too many reasons not not to.
I've got a basement full of all kinds of junk. Why, because G>A>S> got to me. Not to mention at the time something about them appealed to me.
Right or wrong isn't an issue here. What's it really worth? I don't know. Is a Quarterback in the NFL really worth $20 million. Some people think so. Kinda takes the fun out of it if ya know what I'm say-in'. You still pay those outrageous ticket prices to cheer'em on.
What's my Alembic worth to me? More than I paid for for sure. The others have their place. If someone wants to trade their corvette for a Fender P-bass let'em. Their choice. Right back to Eye of the Beholder thing.
Not to mention some habits are darn hard to break! I may be like the fool on the hill or going to hell in a bucket, at least I'm enjoy-in the ride.
My $0.02
NLP

jsaylor

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Alembic Value
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2007, 08:43:46 PM »
When someone decided they don't want their guitar, and they want to sell it they have to go cheap. Demand dictates price. If not many people want them, prices are low. Alembics popularity also has to do with it. Not too many people in real life know about Alembic, so that impacts it. People might just not like the Alembic style. To each his own I guess. For example, if I found a Garcia tribute for around $2000 I'd snatch it up, but anything else I probably wouldn't, so you have to take into factor that one person likeing a certian Alembic model doesn't mean nessecarly he likes them all, or anyothers. Judge by model, not by name.
 
tl;dr- Prices are low because demand is low.
 
 
(Message edited by jsaylor on April 02, 2007)

88persuader

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Alembic Value
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2007, 09:18:48 PM »
The only thing I don't understand is most companies who sell factory direct to their customers give the customer a better price by cutting out the retailer. But with Alembics you can get a MUCH better deal from a retailer then you can get factory direct. This simply doesn't make any sence to me at all!!! A friend of mine just bought a Carvin 5 string bass with all the bells and whistles they offer for under $1,400.00 case included. I was BLOWN AWAY by the workmenship on this custom CHEAP bass. In my opinion it's worth double what he paid for it easy. It's NOT quite up to Alembic standards but for the build quality and price it's an AMAZING value! After seeing and playing it I'd buy one in a heart beat at that price! It definitely blows away any Fender, Warwick or MusicMan I've ever owned. How come Alembic doesn't make it CHEAPER for customers to buy factory direct? It doesn't make any sense at all. Factory direct cuts out the retailer ... since when is retail far LESS expensive then factory direct?!

adriaan

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Alembic Value
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2007, 11:20:23 PM »
Raymond - it's about volumes. Carvin probably produces and sells as much in a month, as Alembic does in at least a year. They have the funds to market and distribute their products outside of retail. Alembic is a small family-owned business with a bit of an attitude towards perfection, which is what attracts a relatively small, but loyal audience of dealers and customers. Note that dealers who stock Alembic probably also fork out 50% in advance.
 
You may have noticed that some custom instruments can get delayed for months - you won't survive in the retail business if you can't deliver on time as there is just too much money tied up in that system. So small is beautiful, and it can't come cheap, and sometimes you have to be patient.
 
In the US, Carvin only sells direct (they tried overseas dealers, but you no longer see much of them over here) which indeed takes the retailer's cut out of the equation. However, I doubt that you pay Carvin what a dealer would pay - they probably make part of their profit on the difference.

88persuader

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Alembic Value
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2007, 12:02:20 AM »
Adriaan, I understand Alembics attitude toward perfection ... I love my Alembic because of it. And I understand that volume sales drive down prices. Business 101 ... My confusion isn't Why are Alembic's expensive it's Why are they more expensive factory direct then from a retailer? If I understand what you're saying you think it's because the retailer puts 50% of the money down in advance for the discount? Well ... how about the end customer getting a better then the current retail price while going factory direct by paying in full in advance? Just a thought. I don't want to sound anti-Alembic ... I'm an owner and a fan. But retail simply should not be cheaper then factory direct. (Perhaps i'm just not sharp enough of a businessman to understand the reasons behind it.)

adriaan

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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2007, 01:04:04 AM »
One Alembic dealer told me that when he orders Alembics from the factory, he pays 50% in advance, and again 50% on delivery - which may take a long time. This is the same for custom orders on behalf of customers, and for his selection of instruments on sale. Of course the dealer gets a discount from the MSRP, but he can't very well sell you the instrument without a bit of profit to keep his business afloat. And he also has to fork out the import duties (something like 20%) when the instruments arrive.
 
With large volume brands, the dealer pays dealer price on instruments that have already been made, or that are coming off a production line, and he pays in advance, on receipt of the goods, or he can even get credit and pay after sale. He can more easily sell these brands, so the cash flow is much easier to deal with.
 
Alembic does allow you to order direct from them, but they discourage that for at least two good reasons: (1) they don't want to spend too much time not building instruments, (2) dealers usually know their Alembics, so they're able to help you make the decisions that you never get to make with run-of-the-mill instruments, and so you stand less chance of ordering one that you will end up not liking.

88persuader

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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2007, 01:47:09 AM »
There are instrument makers who will do custom orders however will NOT sell to you direct. You need to place your custom order through one of their dealers. Ken Smith basses is like this. They have a web site, all the information you need about their product but do not sell direct, period. I guess there are aspects of small businesses I'll never fully understand. Alembic charges more for factory direct then they do the same instrument sold through a dealer. This just seems backwards to me. If they want to discourage factory direct orders why not just do what Ken Smith does? Anyway I'm sure Alembic has their reasons for handling orders and pricing the way they do and it works for them. To me their methods simply seem a litte strange.

adriaan

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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2007, 02:07:35 AM »
Look what I found: the Smith Bass Forums. This appears to be a new addition to the Smith site.
 
Does it have a Factory to Customer section? No (or not yet, to be fair). But I doubt that they want to discuss on-going build details with the customer.
 
So yes, Alembic does things a little differently.

jags

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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2007, 04:47:54 AM »
yes i would have to say that i agree with aj totally and big reds first paragraph. how does an old piece of crap apppreciate thousands of dollars when its been gigged and worn down for 35+ years!?
 
one reason IMHO why alembics depreciate so much is because of labour.  there is so much involved in making one and the craftsman must get paid for him/herself to live.  thats where most of the costs come from. in our society when we purchase something used we demand(more or less) that labour shouldnt be part of the cost and see it only as pieces of wood disgarded by someone for some reason,probably bad, and i should make out well getting it used. with no regard of the craftmenship or the efforts in the electronics from Mr. Wickersham.
 
i must say in the last few months keeping an eye on ebay, i'm amazed at what is being sold.  and if i was rich, well lets just say i would have many more then the 6 i have now, thats for sure and many would be used.  i wouldnt even be concerned, cause i know they sound just as good 10 yrs used as brand new!!!!   right Will?
 
the killer and unfortunate thing for myself is that using a generator my custom gets up to at least $24 000, and i'm sure it would be more when i talked to them about specifics. it would be a stunning bass,amazing really,but would i be able to sell it for over $20 000 prolly not.

keith_h

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Alembic Value
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2007, 05:02:26 AM »
Ray,
The reason for keeping the factory price at full retail is to protect the dealer network. This is not an uncommon business practice. Another area where you see this is the furniture industry. I live close to many manufacturer outlets here in NC. I can get much lower prices than you see in a store showroom. However these outlets are restricted on how and to whom they can sell in order to protect their dealer networks.  
 
Keith

dannobasso

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Alembic Value
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2007, 08:47:46 AM »
The price of labor and materials says it all. A huge portion is labor.  
Though they do sweat, a sweatshop this aint. When i want something unique for me i order a new one. When something used entices me, used it is.  I picked up a perfect refurbed Distillate 5 which was used but more like new-old stock. Right place,right time, which sometimes happens. So the current new to used score is 10 to 6 in the bottom of the 9th with 1 new in progress, one for refinish and a used on the way. Yeah, can i get a dog,diet coke and some popcorn please? oh nuts! I'm out of cash!

u14steelgtr

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Alembic Value
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2007, 03:10:45 PM »
Anyone that knows anything about investment and the nature of the depreciation curve of Alembic instruments in relation to their cash currency of choice could not custom order an Alembic instrument as an investment and expect it to appreciate in value in the short term.  
 
Some people as a hobby; collect instruments which they basically never play.  Every so often I will hear or read somewhere something like:
--> I got this one as a collector piece only; and it has only been out of its case a few times when I wanted to show off.  
This investment model can work in the vintage instrument market where people are really engaging in commodities trading instead of purchasing instruments which will be played.  But they better hope that the mint condition instrument does not develop any finish crazing, develop cracks from being inadequately humidified, or have their 9 year old discover it and pretend to be Pete Townsend.  Comodities trading is after all just another form of gambling.  
 
I think that the depreciation rate of new Alembic made instruments boils down to this. Every Alembic is a custom instrument.  So the price of a new Alembic is based upon some persons willingness to pay a premium to have their current-ideal instrument built exactly to their specifications.  However one persons ideal is never a universal ideal. The willingness of a person to pay top dollar for anything that is not exactly what someone's ideal may be is at best improbable.  
 
Regards
-- Eugene
 
(Message edited by u14steelgtr on April 03, 2007)

rami

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Alembic Value
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2007, 03:13:04 PM »
Jags and Big Red,  I think the mistake is that some people compare Alembics to Fenders in terms of construction, quality, features etc...  
Those old Fenders represent more than just instruments.  They have been  part of our culture since 1946.  They revolutionized popular music for 61 years.  When Bassists started playing electric Basses, they played Fenders.  They played a major role in the birth of Rock 'n' Roll, Motown, The Blues, Country Western, Jazz, etc.  
Fenders represent Americana - musical and popular culture.  They were (and still are) played by most of the great and most influential musicians.
 
You can't view them as mere instruments - they're cultural icons.  This is why they hold their value.  Sure, a 10k '60's Fender won't have the quality, sound or sheer beauty and artistry of an Alembic - but they're two completely different animals, prized and adored for COMPLETELY different reasons.
 
Rami

jalevinemd

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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2007, 05:12:06 PM »
I think Rami summed it up perfectly, though why someone would pay $450,000 for a '59 Les Paul is beyond me.

jsaylor

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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2007, 05:23:15 PM »
Jonathan,
They go for that much because their in high demand for collectors.