Looking pictures of fretless ghost frets

[keith_h]

I am planning on ordering a fretless this next week and am still undecided on whether I want ghost frets and the type of wood, if I do go with them. I spent some time talking with Susan (thanks again for your time Susan) but still have problems visualizing what they would look like after aging. I don't want a wood that has a real high contrast with the ebony but it can't be so dark as to defeat the purpose of the frets. Looking through the archives I found a number of fretless basses that are said to have ghost frets but very few detailed pictures.  
 
Can folks post some neck shots and wood types that I might be able to use for comparison?
 
I am a fretted bassist and have gotten used to feeling the frets to determine neck position. Since I don't have this tactile feedback on a fretless I have decided on some type of fret line.
If I go with the side lines I will use maple but am concerned they will have too much contrast on the face.  
 
Thanks, Keith

[dadabass2001]

Hi Keith,  I have maple ghost frets in my Epic fretless. They are thinner than real frets but appear about like frets when viewed from head on (the audience's perspective when you face them). The worst case scenario would be that the audience would think you were playing a fretted instrument. Let me suggest the best alternative I know, getting side leds (which I also have on the same fretless). I absolutely LOVE them, and could easily do without the ghost frets because of them. But you tell me from these shots taken at a Noah Gabriel show I played this winter:

 

 

  Mike

[sfnic]

Here's a thought:
 
Go with padauk (vermillion) fret lines.  They'll be nice and subdued, and will age over the years from red to a nice dark brown.  So, as you gradually outgrow the need for them, they'll gradually disappear into the ebony.
 
Of course, cherry would be a good intermediate color.  Not as in-your-face as, say, maple, but a bit more visible than mahogany.

[richbass939]

Mike, no idea what kind of music you guys are playing. However, in pic #3 it looks like you're definitely in the groove.
Rich

[son_of_magni]

I would definately go for something that doesn't look like actual frets.  Something like Purple heart, Ipe, or Walnut.  Enough for you to see but not giving anyone watching the idea that it has frets.
 
I've never had a bass with fret markers but I can see how they might be nice.  But actually when I first built a bass, I didn't put any marks, not even side dots, on the neck.  I was a very valuable experience playing a fretless that way for about six months.  Now to a large extent I can actually play fretless with my eyes closed!  But for performing you really want to have something to fall back on.

[trekster]

If I recall (not sure if Alembic did this or not), I remember seeing a bass where the fret lines had been sawed out, inlaid with white plastic, then fretboard glued with the lines down..thus giving only the ends showing on the two sides.  
 
Was planning on doing that after I get my 8-string done.
 
--T

[adriaan]

Trekster,
 
You're probably referring to the sidelines option. Nice try on describing how it's done, but I think you will find that it is impossible to do it that way, as the surface of most fretboards in existence is not flat.

[trekster]

adriaan,
 
Impossible?  Not the way I'm thinking.
 
Lessee if this works -- an ASCII view of the side of an neck, my way of thinking:
 
string
-------------------------------------------
_____________________________________
fingerboard wood
___|_______|______|____|____|__|__|__|
 
neck wood
 
_____________________________________
 
This is based on sawing your own fingerboard, and keeping the side you inlay the fretlines into flat.  After you glue it to your neck, then camber the top of the fingerboard to whatever radius.
 
Like I said my thinking.  I've seen it done before.  Is this what you were thinking, or something else?
 
--T

[mica]

When we inlay sidelines on a fretless fingerboard, we only nick the edge and do not extend the fretline all the way across. You can see the finished result on Barry's Featured Custom, and also on Kent's.  
 
Before the days where I took 300 pictures a week,  we made an Orion 5-string fretless in Vermilion with Vermilion fretlines, for just the reason sfnic stated. Of course, once the board is resurfaced, those orangey-red lines will be bright and shining.  
 
We've done both Koa and Walnut fretlines as well (again, not pics, sorry!). I personally found that since these woods have variations in color, it looks a little funny, almost like we didn't inlay a strip of consistant width.  
 
Unlined is best - as lines are really only guides. If you can force yourself to take the pluge, don't get lines, rely on your ears/brain. But if you want to guides, the sidelines are second best - they leave the surface free from different materials for wonderful gliss. Over time as the wood shrinks at a different rate than the glues that hold the fretlines in, you won't hear any even slight ratcheting as you slide.  
 
Many players are attracted to fretless for the precise reason that they want to play the notes between the frets, and the pull those fractional intervals that never seem to intonate.  
 
When I grow up, I want to be a fretless 5-string player. But I think that's a long long way away!

[trekster]

Ah...I can see the Alembic way, and it is good.  Certainly would save on inlay material!
 
The way I described earlier is also based on using the StewMac template system for sawing fretlines -- where you use a blank fingerboard that has not yet been trimmed to the neck dimensions.  
 
But all in all, I agree with what you said as far as going the unmarked route.
 
--T

[keith_h]

Thanks for the responses. I don't want high contrast ghost frets and still had/have qualms about the different woods in the fretboard with the extreme changes we have in humidity here in NC. After looking at as many pictures as I could (I had already looked through the custom archive when I openned this topic) I decided that sidelines are the best way for me to go.
 
I will always be a fretted bass player first. I don't look at its neck today except for very rare occasions when I'm not sure which way I'm facing. I rely upon feeling the frets and  hearing the note to gauge where I'm at on the neck. As a substitute for fret feel the sidelines should work as a visual subsitute (at least till I start playing the fretless while doing lead vocals).  
 
Thanks again, Keith

[jetbass79]

I find that fretlines cause me more problems than an unlined fingerboard...I don't know if anyone else has this issue.  I just figure take the year of constant playing to play a fretless with no lines and you will be good to go.  But that's just me...

[haddimudd]

This post is probably obsolete now since Keith has already made his decision, but maybe someone enjoys to see some variations of subdued fretlines as on the website of this gentleman who happens to offer epoxy jobs for Jaco-like fingerboard surfacing:
 
http://www.woodwiz.com/guitarlab/epoxy.html
 
At some point I discussed with him using mother of pearl or abalone inlays as fretlines for a Fender neck he would be upgrading for me. It was an intreaguing idea but I wasn't brave enough to go that route, I chose black fretlines on rosewood fingerboard instead. However, there was inspiration for the shell idea when I saw this inlay provider:
 
http://216.105.59.114/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1287
 
Maybe one day I will try this on... my next Alembic fretless maybe? I would love to see this done on somebody's bass for sure.
 
I must admit, I do like fretlines on fretless basses, regardless of the fact that I am comfortable on an unlined fretless just the same. Especially in the higher solo register and when playing chords I am much faster in the correct pitch than I am if I have to slide into pitch by ear first, which still works too.  
 
I never experienced the lines causing any problems for me. If I decide to play by muscle memory and ear I won't be looking at them anyways. But when I feel for a guideline it is there. The same goes for side markers or LEDs, I like them when I am looking for a guide and ignore them when playing by ear.
 
To each his Dulcinea, I guess.
 
Hartmut
 
(Message edited by haddimudd on June 28, 2005)

[son_of_magni]

I think I just posted this somewhere else so forgive me if you already read this.  Since I just built a couple basses and I was reluctant to drill holes in the edge of the fingerboard to put in side dots, I spent a few months playing with no markers at all.  It was a great learning experience.
 
But in response to Keith, I think it's harder to play a fretted bass without looking than fretless.  So I want to warn you, when you start playing fretless you might stop considering yourself a fretted bass player... be careful!  ;-)

[adriaan]

One day I will order myself an unlined fretless 5 - for now, I'll get by with my beloved defretted Epic 4. Here's a picture of the fretlines:

I asked for a low-contrast wood, and builder Peer Dellen suggested darkened maple - from what I remember he said it was treated with water to get that color. No problems with uneven shrinking or swelling, but then I live in a temperate climate ...