Looking pictures of fretless ghost frets

[mpisanek]

This will probably get a few people a little upset.  
 
I was under the impression that fretless meant without frets.  If you are going to use a fretless instrument why even have fret lines anyway?  Doesn't that mean that when you play your instrument you have to stand there and stare at your fingerboard in order to get the correct pitch.  I was under the impression that you should try to look at the audience as much as possible, not down at your own instrument!  
 
One of the biggest reasons for using a fretless instrument is some of the tonal inacuracies that a real player tries to use to his advantage.  This is the beauty of the instrument.
 
How many of you have seen a lined upright bass?  I have not.  
 
When I go out to see musicians perform, I like them to be paying attention to the audience.  If they are looking down at their instruments all the time, I feel that I might as well not be there at all!
 
Playing a fretless is a state of mind, a feel.  More of an art.  I believe if you are going to go fretless then go fretless without going half way.  If you want your instrument to look like it has frets on it get it with frets on it!
 
Sorry about that! Just couldn't resist.  By the way, I am registered blind and can't see the frets or fretlines when I play.
 
Michael.

[bob]

Michael,
 
It happens that I can still see, yet I would never have fretlines either, and after much consideration I eventually decided against LEDs because I recognized that I played better when I wasn't looking.
 
As SOM said, I think it may actually be harder to play fretted without looking, and I find the lines distracting. I was having dinner with some friends recently, and one of them - not a musician - asked a very insightful question: if you're playing a fretted instrument, don't you always want to put your finger just where the fret is?
 
As to whether it's important to look at the audience, while I agree that connecting with them is important (not that I actually perform live, I'm on the other side), you don't have to be able to see to do so. As far as I'm concerned, you can stand there with your eyes closed, as long as you hear and respond to what else is going on, and make it better.
 
It is most definitely a state of mind.
-Bob

[reinier]

One of the biggest reasons for using a fretless instrument is some of the tonal inacuracies that a real player tries to use to his advantage. This is the beauty of the instrument ..... Is it not pre-eminently the fretless that allows us to circumvent the tonal inaccuracies of fretted basses (or it must be you have a Buzz Feiten system installed)?
 
It's a matter of good taste of course (and fortunately we all differ in that department) but I think that my ears would be most grateful when a real player would stop staring into the stage lighting while trying to use tonal inaccuracies to his advantage ;-D!

[haddimudd]

Yes funny, this is one of these religious topics. Of course any purist would hate the idea to have people think he might be so much of a beginner that he would need these little helper lines, thus he rather wants to stand up as a mature player who can do fine without them. It is a very legitimate psycholical phenomenon. I don't feel my maturity questioned though just because I like the lines. You could surely drive a car without a speed indicator if you got used to the feel of speed. I enjoy playing unlined fretless basses just the same. And they look as pure as a fretless instrument can look. But it is just looks. What do I care about looks on an instrument when it comes to usefulness? Ok, I do care, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum, but besides that, I did play unlined fretless and lined fretless.
 
Now, who says you do have to look at your fretlines just because they are there? What a silly idea is that to believe you wouldn't be able to take your eyes off the instrument just because it has these little lines on them?  
 
And who says you have to play your pitch at the spot where the line sits? I play it in front and behind the lines wherever the pitch sounds best, it is still a fretless instrument. I play it exactly where I would play it on an unlined fretless. Fretlines are just guides, like side markers. Do you leave away your sidemarkers just because you won't find them on an upright bass or a violine? Maybe you would and I am sure you would be able to play just as fine. I just have additional options available with fretlines or side markers. Whether I make use of these options during playing or not is purely up to me and usually a matter of the musical situation itself. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
 
I for my part have never understood why purists get so upset about other people's lined fretless instruments. There are discussions about 4 string vs. 5-string, flat strings vs. roundwounds, bolt ons vs. neck through, etc. The fretlines discussion is just as much dependent on personal taste as any of the other. I don't think Mr. Pastorius was ever embarrassed at his fretlines and he surely could have played unlined fretless instrument if ever he wanted.  
 
I guess, you decide what is right for you and that is all that counts. Other people will chose differently for themselves and that is just as alright.
 
Hartmut

[adriaan]

Just because there are fretlines on my fingerboard doesn't mean that I have to look at them ... But even when I do, my fingers are all over the place!

[mpisanek]

Please don't think that I am a purist!  More like a stirrer in this situation.  I love bass!  I love to play, work on, and listen to other people playing then!  I love to talk about them and listen to what other people have to say.  I also love to agree to disagree about them.  
 
Personally I play a fretted spoiler 6 string and a Mosesgraphite upright 6 string with no markers or lines.  They are obviously very different beasts for very different jobs.  
 
My personal preference is not having lines or markers on an unfretted instrument.  But as I said earlier I can't see them anyway!  I don't look at my fretted bass when I play either!

[keith_h]

First my apologies I didn't mean to start a religous war. I was just trying to locate lined fretless bass pictures to determine what I want on my new bass. It was a personal taste and aesthetics thing.  
 
Hartmut,
I can partially agree with your car analogy. It would work as long as there is no music playing. It has been shown time and again that different songs will result in different speeds. One of the more dangerous ones I have found was Radar Love by Golden Earring. In addition to myself I know several other people caught speeding while it was playing on the radio. :-)
 
Keith

[David Houck]

I guess they don't call it Radar Love for nothing !

[David Houck]

I think that perhaps the more important thing might be the music itself that is being produced, rather than whether the instrument has lines or frets or scallops or whether the player is looking at the instrument, at the other players, at the audience, or has eyes closed.  I think it possible that a player can make a very strong connection with the audience without looking at them if the player is playing from the heart.

[adriaan]

By the way, Michael: How many of you have seen a lined upright bass? I have not.
 
Really old double basses and gambas (like before 1800) often have organic pieces of string (gut?) around the neck, across the fingerboard, serving as frets.

[mpisanek]

Adriaan:
 
You are right, I have also seen gut fretted banjos, and the like as well.  Good point!

[haddimudd]

Dave, you made the very right point. The music that comes out of the instrument is the only thing that really matters.
 
Michael, in your very personal case I wouldn't suggest fretlines either.

[gare]

I've seen lined electric uprights.  
I've always played fretted instruments, guess I liked the safety of the frets. About 5 months ago I picked up a used fretless to try out..unlined..and I'm now thinking of an Alembic fretless, and considered lined. Because I like the visual reference, but the sidelines seem like a great alternative. Ms.Mica brings up a valid point about the aging process.
Dave also makes a good point, isnt it important whats being produced by the instrument and the musician ?  Although I've never found it all that entertaining to watch someone with their eyes glued on the neck, I believe we all do it to a point as a reference.  
Not meaning to offend anyone..but some of this sounds like mine are bigger than yours because you use lines and I dont.  
Gary

[bracheen]

I might as well throw in my opinion.  I like the safety factor as well.  I've never had a bass with side markers, my fretless Jazz had lines, but I think that would be the way for me to go.  I like the look of the clean fretboard even to the point of no inlays.  Also it's easy to glance down at the side of the neck but the face of it is not so readily visible to me.
 
Sam

[bob]

No offense taken, but just to make my personal position clear: it is not a matter of pride to me to not have fretlines, nor do I think poorly of those who do.
 
I simply find them distracting, and also prefer the clean look.
 
I could go on at  some length about just how expensive visual processing is, and the rather surprising limits of the human brain to multi-task on simultaneous sensory input... but that would be another forum.
 
Of course, if I played more, and in particular switched between fretted and fretless, perhaps the distraction would become less of an issue over time.
 
No judgement implied here, just expressing a personal viewpoint and preference.
-Bob