Author Topic: Finger noise (Read 835 times)

David Houck · « **on:** May 14, 2004, 10:19:28 AM »

I have a problem with right hand finger noise; high frequency clicks in both slap and finger style. I'm not going to change my right hand technique just to get rid of the noise since I would be also giving up a lot of positive attributes of the technique. I've tried numerous neck relief, bridge and nut adjustments to no avail. Obviously if I roll the treble off it goes away, but I like my tone too much to do that. So I'm wondering, what effect does string tension and/or string gauge have on finger noise? Has anyone noticed a reduction in finger noise when going to a higher tension string or a thicker gauge string?

kayo · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2004, 11:10:07 AM »

Dave

Interesting topic - I've been dealing with that for years - with both Alembic and non Alembic bases (MusicMan, Aria Pro, Ibanez) - but the truth is - the awesome Alembic electronics have made this a more prevalant issue (now I only play Alembic - though I am about to purchase a Ritter as my second ax). That is both a good and bad thing - as I am sure you will agree. At the end of the day - the bad side to me is for the most part a non-issue.

The approaches I've taken to address the issue are:

* switched strings - hated it - my heavy handed slap and pop technique requires the time and endurance tested design of either DR's or Rotosounds. Other strings go flat too fast, or break too fast (the D & G strings). I tend to break a G string about every 2 days when I play as much as I'd like to, and when I don't play as much, or focus on walking vs slapping, my strings go flat in about 4-5 days

* tried going to all tube amplification - got rid of Trace Elliot, got rid of GK, tried Ampeg and Boogie - though they did deliver some intersting and useful sounds - could not really capture the type of tonal quality that I prefer for my heavy handed slap - I tried hybrid (Eden WT 800) and that is where I have settled. I get the edge I want for slap without the overwhelming brittleness that I had noticed with straight solid state.

* another advantage is having some EQ functionality available - not for sound coloring -but for identifying the particular bandwidth of the brittleness where the finger noise and clicks occur so you can cut that frequency just enough to taper it a notch

* lastly, I have been experimenting with cabinets. Just as with amps, cabinets can lend themselves to a predisposition for bringing out or emphasizing certain tonal qualities. Some cabinets with very wide frequency reproduction capabilties either don't handle transients well / tend to be brittle - whereas others that don't have much of a wide frequency range at all fail at delivering the kind of tone I prefer (no edge or bite). If I had to pick one over the other - I'll take the brittle cab and work around it vs taking the flatter cab and not being able to get that sound at all. Ideally I am looking to match a flat cab with a brittle cab (I have the Bag End Q10BXD - brittle & crisp) and I am considering introducing an Ampeg, ACME or EBS cab to round my sound out

As far as the gauges - I have experimented with those too - it was a very hard tranistion for me. Lighter strings didn't project, sustain or respond with the meatiness I am used to (not to mention they break quicker), and heavier gauge strings did just the same in the opposite direction - however, there is less brittelness with the heavier gauge. The trade off for me was more than I was willing to sacrifice. I use 45,65,85,105 (or 80 on the A string if using rotosounds but then my right hand doesn't adjust well to the asymetry between the E & A, or the A and D)

If you can handle the heavier gauge - this should taper some of that brittleness for you. Someone got me to try some Thomastik Infelds (pyramids?) - and depite the fact that the gauge was really whacky (I can't remember what they were) they responded as if they were perfectly balanced - I was blown away. But they didn't last very long and were very expensive - so I went back to old (and cheap) faithful

Good luck - let me know what you end up with - I may try it too

bsee · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2004, 12:01:35 PM »

Hmm. Clicks seems like an odd thing to get from right hand action (assuming you're right handed...). I used to get noise from fingers rubbing across roundwound strings on my Modulus with the EMG electronics, and short of cutting the treble, there was nothing I could do about it. I just wouldn't have characterized them as clicks. Clicks makes me think of the noise of a string hitting a fret.

Do you think that the noise is in a small enough frequency range that you could cut it out with a notch filter without really affecting the rest of your tone? If I had a 15-30 band EQ lying around, I might plug through it and see if I could ID the offensive frequency range. If that seems to work, then I would look at some quality hardware to make a permanent solution. Maybe an SF-2 could do the job?

hollis · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2004, 12:20:14 PM »

Dave,

You've probably already tried this but...Do you have room to adjust you pickups down a little? Would it affect your sound too much to back the them a hair or two lower? That might help....

(Message edited by hollis on May 14, 2004)

adriaan · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2004, 01:21:59 PM »

Dave,
Not sure about your electronics, but if you have a Q switch try to set it flat. I found the on position on my Spoiler (+8dB) just too squeaky/peaky/agressive to my taste, and am having it replaced with a gentler arrangement (along with a non-click panpot).
Other than that, Hollis' suggestion about lowering the pickups could be just the thing - it was the one adjustment you didn't mention.

alembic76407 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2004, 01:31:52 PM »

Dave, I had the same problem on my Epic and I did lower the pickups alittle and that did the trick, that stopped the squeaking with the left hand and popping with the right hand

David T

kayo · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2004, 02:12:52 PM »

Leave it to the members of this forum - they will always keep you honest. I did forget to mention the gain settings and the pickup height.

I also did this - and it only occured to me after I noted that my due to heavy right hand technique, my thumb was striking the string hard enough (and the neck pickup was high enough) that they were making contact with each other - causing damage to the pickup casing as well as introducing an added (and unwanted) sound element into my signal. I did drop the pickup height just beyond where the contact was being made - and then compensated for it by raising the gain in the back cavity of the bass.

I still get the finger noise, but not as prominent. One last note - I also slightly modified (more accurately, became more finessed in my technique).

A little of this - a little of that - ALAS - problem solved.

David Houck · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2004, 05:40:25 PM »

In response to all of your generous suggestions:

My strings are Thomastik Jazz Rounds and I absolutely love them. I would hate to have to replace them for, in my opinion, and for the way I play, their playability, tone and durability surpass anything else I've played.

Different amps and speakers don't help, as I will adjust the tone until I get my tone.

The notch filter idea is one that I've considered but not yet tried. And I do have a 30-band EQ in the basement. So I should give it a try and see if it works. Of course if it does, that's one more thing to add to the rack; but I guess that would be preferable to changing strings.

I already have an SF-2 in my rack and considerable experimentation did not eliminate the noise without significantly impairing my tone. The rolloff from the filter settings is too broad. The 30-band EQ idea would probably affect a smaller range of frequencies. Of course it may also adversely affect intended harmonics and muted notes.

Yes, I've tried adjusting the pickup heights and it hasn't helped. My neck pickup is currently set quite low.

Currently my main bass is a Spoiler (my Essence is out in California for a while); and my main setting for the Q switch is the off position.

Again, except for the finger noise, I love my tone. So far, any change to amps, speakers, SF-2, Q, etc. significant enough to affect the finger noise also affects my tone.

With the finger noise problem in mind I recently watched some videos I have of Marcus Miller and Victor Wooten. I do not think that I am striking the strings any more aggressively, or with a steeper angle of attack, than they.

So at this point, given the above suggestions, I will (1) attempt to lower the pickups even further and (2) retrieve the 30-band EQ from the PA rack in the basement.

Will let you know of any progress.

Thanks for the responses!

David Houck · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2004, 06:37:24 PM »

Well I'm back.

First I lowered the pickups to their lowest positions. This did clean up the noise a good bit but it did not eliminate it, and it even seemed to highlight the clicking. It also of course reduced output which I compensated for elsewhere. And it of course changed the tone somewhat.

Next I added the 30-band EQ.

First I started taking out the high frequencies until the clicking had been reduced; 20kHz, then 16, then 12.5, then 10. But that ruined the tone. I tried compensating with the SF-2 but couldn't get my tone back.

Then I started taking them out one at at time. This was more effective. Taking either the 12.5 or the 10 out did reduce the clicking noise without too much damage to the tone. I settled on the 12.5 and tweeked the SF-2 a little until I had a reasonable tone. There's still clicking but it's not as bad as it was. So I would say progress was made. But there's something strange about adding a 30-band EQ to your rack just to get rid of finger noise.

I'll practice with this for a while and see what I think. It will probably take a good bit of adjusting before I can come to any conclusions.

dadabass2001 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2004, 07:22:15 PM »

Dave, a good variable notch filter or parametric would probably do the job also. Just my 2? worth.
Mike

David Houck · « **Reply #10 on:** May 14, 2004, 07:32:13 PM »

Mike; I previously tried putting a preamp with a parametric in the effects loop, but it didn't work as well as the graphic EQ did tonight. Any suggestions on a variable notch filter; I've never tried one of those.

dadabass2001 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 14, 2004, 07:44:37 PM »

Dave,
I know Shure Bros. used to make one for PA adjustment, about the same size as an M-267 mixer.

I believe when I saw the Grateful Dead in Iowa during the Wall of Sound years (mid 70s), the FOH sound was running thru something like 3 or 4 M-67 mixers bussed together. Shure makes some good stuff (DUH!)
Mike

hasse · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2004, 01:18:14 AM »

I don?t know if this will work. Split the signal in high and low frequencies and use a compressor on the high frequencies then bring the two signals back together.
Set the crossover frequence at 8000-10000 Hz where the problems starts. Clicks are a wery short sound so I would adjust the compressor to quick attack and releace times.

Best regards Hasse

David Houck · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2004, 07:59:30 AM »

Hasse; this is an intriguing suggestion. I've saved your message to my desktop so I can reread it when I'm ready to give this a try.

Thanks.

gbarchus · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2004, 12:34:37 PM »

I've used a Furman Sound PQ3 (there's now a 4 for how many bands) parametric between my F2B and power amp. It's very clean and you can punch it in and out.

Gale