Author Topic: Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.  (Read 427 times)

jazzyvee

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8727
  • Bass, Guitar, Preamps.
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« on: June 07, 2010, 06:19:31 AM »
What I'm describing here is only related to my experience of sound at large venues and outdoor festivals. It's not that it spoils the event but for me it is extremely frustrating. But I imagine others here have experienced similar thoughts.
 
I have over the years played at and attended many large festivals with large stages and large concerts indoors in big arena's  in the USA, Europe including the world renown Symphony hall in Birmingham which is claimed to be one of the best sounding indoor venues in the world. ( and that still has the problem... .as I hear it).
 
Anyway, my observation is that all of the large concerts I've attended, bar an isolated few,  the sound coming off the bass guitar is always lacking in definition and clarity? Why is this? Regardless of genre of the bands I've seen  there is always masses of bottom end but nothing on the top to give clarity to the notes being played by the bass player. Other instruments always have a better sound.
 
I have this weekend been to another music festival and it was exactly the same. There was no clear definition of the notes played even though most of the bands were either acoustic folk, light rock, popular music and reggae ( DreadZone).  I was watching the bass players playing some interesting lines and what I heard was the notes he was playing but very woolly and no clear articulation of the notes being played. I can hear everything else fine even when the keyboards were playing the bass lines the sound of that had better clarity than the bass guitar. It just seems to me that regardless of the bass, the engineer is looking for is making the bottom end heavy and ignoring the other end of the sound spectrum which would give the overall sound of the band more definition.
 
Now I've heard many engineers over the years talk about adding a little bit of higher frequency content to the bass drum to lift it and give it some definition but why don't they do this for the bass? The bass player could have been playing a ?30 bargain basement bass and it would have sounded the same as the guy who had a sadowsky.
 
I know from experience that reggae bands want a heavy deep bass line but  I don't see why a little bit of crisp edge to the tone would ruin the sound. I'm not expecting it to sound thin just heavy but with a little lift to aid in the clarity. The only bass players I've heard live in large venues or festivals where their sound was both deep and clear so that every note is distinguished from the next are Stanley Clarke and John Entwhistle. Yes I know they are alembic players but I saw third world with a Ken Smith 5 and that sounded dreadful and also Herbie Hancock's bass player had a Fodera which was better sounding but still not clear enough.
 
Most times the bass sounds like they are playing the same NOTES as the bass drum. I am working on bass with a vocalist in her new band at the moment and they are planning to do some festival gigs and touring in the near future subject to things working out well with her recording deal. I'm really looking forward to getting on a big stage again and use my alembic bass but what I dread is that the sound will end up like the rest all mushy.
 
I know there are a good few pro's here and recording and sound engineers. Any advice?
I plan to use my Elan for touring and that has a good bright and heavy sound. I do use different sounds on it for different tracks and I just wonder if the FOH engineer be able to counter all the eq settings that I make so that I am unable to get the tonal variation I want at the ears of the listener.
 
 
Jazzyvee
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 06:34:03 AM »
Without demising every soundman as I have worked with some of them who do listen to your suggestions some of them who either lack experience or don't listen to bass just push up the low pot in the channel and 'that will do!'
Once I asked to have the high boosted and his answer was ' but it's a bass not a guitar!' and that said it all. So to teach him a lesson I turned the filters off and put the Q's in, selected post EQ on the DI output and turned the low control up on my amp(this was at sound check of course)..he then relented and give me a little top end and  I re adjusted everything and my MK sounded really sweet.

crobbins

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 987
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 06:49:38 AM »
Quite often in reggae music there is a guitar shadowing the bass line. That does help to give the bass some edge.

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 07:35:04 AM »
OK, having been on both sides of the table so to speak  doing both FOH work and as a performer I can tell you that the acoustic phenomenon that are present inside of a room are vastly different then a large outside festival setting. I know you all know this . In side of a large room or hall one can try to  compensate for the terrible back slap delay with a piece gear such as a TC electronics 1280. Out side is another critter  with hit's own host of obstacles  such as the demands for much more Watts needed and low frequency cabinets.   I have not done  any FOH work in a while and technology has vastly changed since I have. What I can suggest is if the setting is inside that the  FOH person runs all of the calibration standards such as White and pink noise  and calibrates their system accordingly with a Real Time  Analyser. Sweeps to find resonant frequencies of the room and other tricks in the bag of  FOH  system calibration.
 
If the the FOH person has enough time and willingness  to work with and please the artist( Bass Player) he can take a WET direct feed & a Dry direct feed and then do  A&B comparisons between both running through the FOH system. There are a few  different approaches on how to do this;  methods will vary from various individuals . Stress to the FOH person that you want the sound of your wet signal to be at the ears of the listener  . Jazzyvee  & terryc I am completely sympathetic to your concerns because I too have had my intended sound ruined by uncontentious FOH work.

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 08:02:12 AM »
sonicus..it must really p**s you off when that happens since you are an engineer and you know what to do!

bigredbass

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3032
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 08:34:08 AM »
FOH guys (and the side-of-the-stage monitor guys) are artists in their own right.  They can make or break you.
 
I'll only say that this (plus my own sound off my own amp just feet away) has driven me nuts after all of these years.  You never really get to hear what you sound like, and what with acoustic/archtectural vagaries built into the equation, I've never been the least bit sure that the way I sound in my own sweet spot ever sounds anything like that out front:  In fact, I'm sure it doesn't.  Frustrating . . .
 
I once read an interview where Joe Osborne said he disliked live playing as he had little control over his tone vs. the studio.  It's very interesting that Jimmy J uses no amp at all, prefers to hear himself through stage wedges, partly as he dosn't want a big stage rig bleeding through every mic on stage.
 
I've always said if I could get my living room sound everywhere I'd be happy.  Never gonna happen.  One big reason I never play out any more, I don't trust what I'm hearing.  You can spend a fortune on basses and amps, but whatever room you're in is a big piece of the puzzle.
 
J o e y

bigredbass

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3032
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 08:36:58 AM »
PS
 
Having said that, tomorrow I could go to the biggest dump in town, see some guy with a junk bass and an amp that I wouldn't buy a dog to play through, and he'll sound great.  Anybody seen my Tylenol?
 
J o e y

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 08:44:15 AM »
Yes , terryc !  Quite frustrating .
I remember when I was Playing Bass  and was in the opening act at a venue called the Keystone in Palo Alto California back in the mid 1970's and  I could not hear the vocals because we were not given enough monitors and I was being beat up by my own Bass back slap off the back the  hall going through the FOH system  and my Bass sounded like   flatulent  boomy MUD !.  I had just attended Audio School (College for Recording Arts) and Everything that I had learned was fresh in my mind but still  had little practical experience in the field.  No one would take me seriously  so and was told by the leader of the band  I know this is a rough scenario  , but I do not want you to step on any toes ____ so just behave your self!   I felt helpless but latter was rewarded by being allowed to hang out in a large remote recording truck  where the recording engineers agreed with me in the dilemma ,but they were there only for  the   Main Head Line  Act  and were not associated with the FOH  persons.
 
(Message edited by sonicus on June 07, 2010)

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 11:24:37 AM »
ever noticed that the sound ALWAYS improves when the support act go off and the main act come on!

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 11:50:50 AM »
That happens far too often. As part a support  act  I have at times  felt like just another Pigeon standing around for  crumbs  ! LOL !_____

88persuader

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 433
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 08:43:34 PM »
The dredded back up band mix is legendary! In most large concerts they don't even let the back up band use the same mixing board as the main act!!  
 
In regard to bass BOOM and lack of definition in large venues I think the venue itself often contributes to that. Basketball and Hockey arenas were not made for music! One way to combat it I think is to add mids. Most bass players i know including me SCOOP their mids out but mids will cut through a mix when you need definition, not trebble. Too much top end on a bass just sounds clanky and harsh, you're better off with high mids. ..... Just my opinion, I'm no engineer.

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2010, 09:00:13 PM »
The Architectural aspects  of a Hall Versus the needs that are conducive for acoustic design are always an issue , standing waves and such ; etc ... ... ... .    As a performer ; Yes , I agree I like high mids for definition and low mids for GROWL  in my Bass sound, it works to cut through a mix _ but not everyone  might agree on the timbral aspects . I like it however in my own Bass sound. Good  call ______

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2010, 09:10:21 PM »
One of the aspects that are also an issue is phase cancellation .
 
     As far as Mids in  Bass goes _ all is relative in each particular scenerio . It will not work for all examples. Total spectral content of the program material must be taken into account .

88persuader

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 433
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2010, 09:48:17 PM »
With live sound there are so many factors to deal with it's almost a crap shoot! The mix could be PERFECT at the sound board and sound like total crap everyplace else. I saw Kansas in the very early 80s at the old Boston Gardens, probably the worse sounding concert hall in existance. Their back up band was Molly Hatchet and they suffered from the expected back up band sound. Unballanced, not loud enough for the venue and muddy! They weren't even allowed to go through the main sound board, they used a small seperate sound board. When Kansas came on they uncovered a HUGE sound board, turned on SEVERAL power amps and effects units that weren't on for Molly Hatchet and when Kansas started playing it sounded like a studio recording IN THE BOSTON GARDEN!!! I was almost more impressed by their live sound as I was by their awesome performance. The clearity and punch of the sound and the perfection of balance and tone was breath taking. Their sound man was a master!!! I guess my point is when you have a sound man at a big venue it doesn't matter if you're playing a Series II through the most expensive amp in the world or a MIM Fender P bass through a small Peavey bass combo amp. In those situations how you sound is totally out of your hands and you'd better just hope the sound man actually knows his craft and has EARS!

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2010, 10:06:50 PM »
Ok  yes , Kansas!   When I worked for Bill Graham back in day  . I worked at a Kansas show at  Winterland .  I almost caught on fire from one of those Flash Pots ! I was standing too close !  I think the tune was Carry On My Wayward Son .