Author Topic: Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.  (Read 429 times)

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2010, 10:32:38 PM »
Most  head line  band have their own FOH and Monitor mix person and their own Boards' It might be  it be a  Midas, Rupert Neve, Euphonics Audio or what ever their preference is. Not just any one is allowed to touch it .    
            When I worked with Genesis there was caravan of seven  Consolidated Freight Lines  (company name)  Simi- Trucks  of Genesis Owned equipment on the the Tour.

88persuader

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 433
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2010, 11:04:38 PM »
Sounds like you've had some very good big act experiences. I've backed up a few big name bands who were on their way DOWN in popularity but always at big clubs, never major events. I would have loved to have seen the behind the sene inner workings of bands like Genesis and Kansas in their prime! What exactly was your role if you don't mind me asking?

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2010, 11:46:47 PM »
For those shows I was on Staff for Bill Graham Presents and FM Productions ;  often as a stage hand and was asked to do many different tasks within the company. I was able to get a good look at the Pro  Audio scene and get hands on experience and exposure to the various political aspects that were part of it. It was a good experience for a young man who was fresh out of audio school  . I unfortunately missed the boat a few times during that time where opportunities had been offered me that involved extended travel ; some I had to turn down due to family obligations and some because I did not not realise that in order to to clime up the ladder of success in some circles you have to be willing to accept certain dynamics of sacrifice. This was something that I , who was still in my early 20's had not learned yet and had a hard time to accept. I eventually left the company and worked for CBS and other such  vocational adventures .
 
(Message edited by sonicus on June 07, 2010)

88persuader

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 433
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2010, 12:34:44 AM »
Cool ... thanks for the insight!

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2010, 05:42:07 AM »
88persuader..good bit if info on the mids, methinks I will try that at next support gig. Thanks

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 05:47:07 AM »
Sonicus..I know what you mean, the rebel is still in us in our twenties and 'sucking up' to ascend is certainly not my philosphy, maybe that is why I never moved up into management!.
Sounds like good experience though

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2010, 07:47:49 AM »
There were a few reasons why I left and  an important one to me reason was that
the rate of compensation was not sufficient.

pace

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1139
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2010, 11:48:01 AM »
Here's some shots from an outdoor gig last Sunday. Four stages, 50 bands, and the best production staff I've had the pleasure of working with in a long time....  
 
http://www.courant.com/entertainment/music/hc-bomb-fest-durham-pictures,0,5238836.photogallery
 
I was called in as a stage/backline manager for one of the stages. ATS from Mass. brought in the sound and backline (most of which luckily was shared by the acts).  Our stage was as accommodating as possible considering that we only had about 10mins to change over between acts.
 
 As far as bassists go, we only had one upright player, and the rest was Fender J & P's, one Carvin, and one Alverez...... I was surprised that the engineer I was working with didn't mind taking the balanced out off the GK head (which in turn fed our system whatever tweaks each bassist made to that rig).... The GK did add some color to the bass, but at the same time, it might not have been a rig that every bassist was completely comfy with.  
 
All in all, I feel for everyone's disappointment in FOH guy's gear and ears. But, on a day like this one, It was clearly apparent just how much of one's own sound comes from the fingers and further within!!!
 
(Message edited by pace on June 08, 2010)

edwin

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3433
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2010, 03:42:14 PM »
I've played a lot of outdoor festivals and there a huge number of variables that will affect the sound. One of the biggest problems with bass tone both inside and outside is stage volume. When that low end goes all over the stage and into every mic, there are numerous instances of phase difference, each of which creates a smear in the tone. The other issue that if the bass is super loud, then the FOH person is probably a little less inclined to help the guy get heard out front. So, my strategy is to try to keep my level down to a reasonable one. In ears help a lot.
 
Another issue is that often the tone that the bass player thinks they are getting may be completely different from the one being sent to the house. If you EQ your bass to sound perfect for an SVT and then they take a direct right off the bass, who knows what it will sound like out front?
 
Another issue: PAs themselves. We live in the era of the line array. There are lots of things written about it, so you can surf to your heart's content to find out about the implications of it. The bottom line is that it creates a very efficient and controlled way of getting the sound to the audience. It results in a smaller truck pack and less electricity usage. However, there's something about the mids and highs that to my ear create a kind of mp3 effect. I've never heard a line array system create the sort of impact and depth of sound that was available in the old school systems. Maybe it has more to do with the switching power amps of today than speaker technology, all I know is that I find them fatiguing and unsatisfying to listen to. The exception is the line array for the low end. However, this requires a set of subwoofers 1 wide and 40 feet ( at a minimum) tall. The theory is that your stack needs to be taller than the wavelength of the lowest note you want to propagate. With a low B being at 30.87hz, you need a stack 36.417 feet tall. This changes the physics of how the wave propagates. Instead of it propagating as a segment of a sphere and falling off according to the inverse square law, it propagates as a section of a cylinder and falls off linearly. The efficiency, impact and depth of such a low end rig is simply stunning. It sounds like the bass is coming up from under the ground, yet is super quick and has incredible impact. I've only heard this in person once. The rig had two very tall stacks of Meyer subwoofers and it was a profound bass experience where every nuance of the bass guitar had a practically three dimensional clarity to it. However, it probably required almost a whole semi to cart the thing around.
 
Mike, in the end, is right, though. Not only does the sound primarily come from the fingers, but what you choose to play. A really cool lick with a million sixteenth notes will get lost in the inertia of moving the air along with the other instruments, whereas a really well thought out and relatively sparse line will be perfect.
 
Of course, if the FOH guy is one those guys who measures his privates by the size of his kick drum sound, all bets are off.

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15610
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2010, 04:04:39 PM »
What were the two instances of hearing the low end line array?

edwin

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3433
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2010, 04:24:57 PM »
The Grateful Dead in 1988. I wish I had been able to hear their PA in '74, but I missed it by 2 years, which seemed like a lifetime back then!

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15610
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2010, 05:00:06 PM »
I saw the Dead sometime around '75 or possibly '76 in DC; I think it may have been the Capital Center.  But the only thing I remember was the amazing visual sight of the Wall of Sound.

sonicus

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2010, 05:04:38 PM »
It was a The Sound of  Sounds! I was at the Sound Test shows At the  Cow Palace . Phil made the concrete floor resonate !   He sounded clear from his lows to his highs.

pace

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1139
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2010, 05:30:56 PM »
I'm glad Edwin commented on contemporary line arrays.....
 
The two main stages that we setup were side-by-side. Each one had 6 JBL vertec line-arrays per side (non powered variety), and 4 2x18 JBL SRX subs per side below the height of the stage (good for your solar-plexus only if you're in the first few rows). All the power amps were either Crest or Crowns of assorted switching classes, crossovers were BSS and dbx, management was done at front of house thru a Midas XL88 and each stage had it's own Digidesign Venue board. The line-up alternated back and forth from stage1 to stage2, the empty stage's rig ran a stereo feed attenuated 6db as to not completely mess with the live stage's stereo image.....  Might sound like a recipe for disaster, but it worked out fine!  
 
The way most FOH engineers tend to manage their work flow (inputs, sub groups, speaker assignment, etc) with this type of rig, almost guarantees that the bass is going to be mainly routed to the subs, and any mids/highs/transients in the line arrays will be disjunct from the image that your ears want to focus on when you think bass.  
 
For the bass players, I was thinking how handy a biamped FX-1 would be if the FOH was cool w/ accepting two line inputs from the bass player. (At 6am I was also cursing myself for not bringing my S1 for line checks!!!!)  It's been a while since I've been around a system(s) with that much potential, yet the logistics of a dozen bands per stage in a day, kind of made all that thinking wishful...  
 
you got a prob w/ the size of my kick drum sound, Edwin?!?  lol...

edwin

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3433
Sound of bass at large events inside and outside.
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2010, 05:50:58 PM »
Mike, I'm sure your kick drum size is fine. I'm not hearing any overcompensation over here! I have often run in stereo and most FOH guys have no problem with it. For a while I had 4 lines, stereo mains and stereo loops. When my S I shows up, I fully intend to run it in stereo. I am wondering if an F2B will allow you to use the mono out without disrupting the stereo outs for cases where the house doesn't want a stereo line.
 
Dave,  I think it was a little further back than you remember, the Wall was dismantled at the end of 1974. They did do a few shows in '75, but none on the east coast. In June of '76 they did an east coast run with a rented PA that was more of a standard setup than the Wall was, but still interesting in its own right. A slew of sand filled cabinets with 5 speakers powered by huge Sansui amplifiers (their equivalent of the Mac 2300). I heard it at the Boston Music Hall 35 years and 3 days ago and it sounded great, although at that time I had little to compare it with.
 
So, Sonicus, when do we get to see photos of your remaining Starfire, or do we have to come out there, camera in hand and do it ourselves? :-)