I Dont See The Point......

[88persuader]

My suggestion isn't about creating more signature models for these younger players, my feeling is Alembic should get more young popular TALENTED players to use and endorse Alembics to help spread the word.

[toma_hawk01]

I remember Stanley Clarke saying he's really an acoustic upright bassist, and plays electric bass as a hobby.  
 
OK, fair enough -- So, if this is true, where are his line of Signature Acoustic basses?
 
Sounds some-what condescending when drawing distinctions between electric basses, in comparisons to the Acoustic-upright basses.  
 
Seems to me, Stanley captured most of his fortune fame using electric basses. Stanley's comments are confusing because the vast majority of basses he proudly poses in front of the camera and captures, are very high end, and obvious very expensive electric basses. But on the other hand, I'd only seen one acoustic upright in his war chest. I guess I can't read logic and reasoning into such remarks.
 
Peace and Love,
 
Hal-
 
 
 
(Message edited by toma_hawk01 on July 19, 2010)

[jazzyvee]

It maybe that he has found his acoustic bass voice via that one instrument doesn't feel the need to have another. Although I recall on his site that on the road he takes a spellbinder copy of the acoustic bass he uses at home.  
 
http://www.stanleyclarke.com/gear_pg.htm
 
 
In any case it would be hard to create a signature version of a 120-year old German flatback acoustic.
 
 
Jazzyvee

[toma_hawk01]

Jay, this may be very true for Stanley personally, and you might also be right, but commercially he says: I am a Rock Man with the bass; a Jazz Man a Movie Man with the bass; a Soul-Man with the bass; a hip tall and cool FUNK player with the bass, and he does it all using the electric bass.  
 
However, now mid mid stream career wise, he say's all of that playing was a hobby?  
 
Alembic Inc., honors Stanley with a signature electric bass for recognition, and Stanley receives a very expensively made custom bass, with all the trimmings and a mythical Dragon image on it's inlays to his honor and his attributes for-free, from his dedicated efforts of playing the Alembic electric basses (for all those years...) -- which Stanley speaks of playing electric bass as mere hobby is very questionable to say the least, and clearly, I don't know what is gained from such boasting.
 
That's something from the pages of Iceberg Slim...
or clearly, if there are no rules to the game, you must believe in myths.
 
Also, the Gear list (Stanley's or anyone else (for that matter...)) -- are subject to change thus, a consistent living, dynamic reality.  
 
Romantic Warrior, is how old? But, RW is still my favorite tune Stanley ever did with an acoustic upright bass. It's truly timeless, and I can't thank him enough for that one tune; I only remember.
 
Perhaps if Stanley really feels this way about playing acoustic basses, early in his career, Stanley should-had just put more work behind Popularizing/Commercializing his acoustic playing, and alleviate all the confusion if he truly feels/felt this or that way about electric basses. But history, shows he clearly didn't, and failed to make a convincing statement [backed up] with action, when he absolutely had the means, to put what he said, into musical reality. Unfortunately, I believe he missed the one and only boat 30 years ago to prove, and validate such words or claims he continue to raise in this regard.  
 
You can't have it both ways...  
 
By the way, I never heard Stanley take the acoustic upright bass, and use it primarily as a lead instrument, as he did with the versatility of the electric bass.  And thus, to do this -- he would require another acoustic upright bassist, or an electric bassist (or even a tuba player), covering the background, while Stanley plays the lead. With such words from Stanley, I would had expected to see this kind of band on a constant bases. So, I am not even sure if I could give him credit for representing any band of his creations, depicting slighted movement(s) in the direction his statements.  
 
Therefore, stating he has a more greater appreciation playing acoustic upright basses, one would had guess by now, he would had done something consistent with such statements. Therefore I believe another opportunity was missed.  
 
I don't trust artist printed words after they perceive they'd reached a certain level of fame. I am by nature more critical with the media and the artist...(as I believe we all should be...) because if the media agree with the philosophy, drive, and direction the artist is heading from within the message(s), it get printed, carried and supported over to greater masses, if not -- it get's the: bad for business card.  
 
(Just how long did it take for Jimi Hendrix thoughts on music, and politics to be reviled?...)  
 
I believe, as a listener, or if you say you are a fan of a particular artist, I don't see nothing wrong with being even more critical to what an artist says and/ or do. I believe it's really easy to get tripped up by their fortune and fame, and or get blinded by their characterization the media label them as. So, at times, you can't even trust the media either because the media reporter(s) are careful not to ask the critical questions, and bounded by a corporate script; or lack the historical reference, and perspective to ask the right questions; or they don't ask enough thought provoking, and challenging questions on the artist(s) facts, ironies, fictions, dreams and or short comings as real people face.  
 
Some music medias would have us think (and some artist too) in one way, while heading in a different direction all-together....  
 
Every time I hear a reporter or a music blog use the the term legend, I am in question, and doubt as to what he/she means, and by what means (compared to what) is an artist a legend, and why it's assumed, as something so subjective, I must also accept -- when music is not a competitive sport where you beat an opponent, to claim championship towards legend status.
 
The term legend is a dumb term, in reference to music, and I agree with Miles Davis completely with the fallacy, and fallacious depictions which the term can't represent to all people. The term is a trick to allude artist toward a musical status quo, or to a musical so-called governance composed by an elite body which gains controls over the public/private perceptions based on the acceptance of such subjective and  obscure terms we allow to impose it opinions, with greater importance, over and above individuals outside the cultural domains. Also, the term legend, requires you to believe in their existence, before proven.  So with no real criterion, why does this term even exist. What a fraud of a term it is... Legend. The term is very divisive, and that can't be good.  
 
Lastly, (In my Opinion) I don't believe Alembic awarded Stanley Clarke a fabulous bass, with thoughts of his concepts on electric basses as being something second to any basses, nor as a hobby like career when using their electric basses. (Just my opinion).  
 
Peace and Love,
 
Hal-
 
 
(Message edited by toma_hawk01 on July 19, 2010)

[dfung60]

Joey -  
 
Without hijacking the thread too much, the Klein Electric story is an interesting one.  Steve Klein is a very innovative luthier and still makes small numbers of acoustic guitar, including a number of pretty eccentric instruments.  He has a book of his work which is pretty interesting (Art That Sings).  
 
He explored ergonomic designs for the electric guitar back in the late 70's and ended up working with Ronnie Montrose on a design in the early 80s, but they didn't produce that guitar commercially.  Interestingly Klein knew Rick Turner (I guess this wasn't totally a hijack!), who was working with Gibson R&D at the time and hooked him up with Ned Steinberger to produce the Steinberger GK model - ergo body, headless composite neck, and screw tuners.  It sounds like the idea was that Steinberger would produce the guitars, but it ended up that Steinberger provided parts to Klein who built the electric guitars in California.  
 
After a while (a couple of hundred GKs, I think), Klein got tired of an assembly line and dissolved the relationship, but continued to build the guitars on a very limited and customized basis under the Klein Electric name.  
 
Eventually, Klein pulled out of that as well, and sold the electric guitar operations to his primary builder Lorenzo German.  The location of production changed, but they were pretty much the same guitars.  When the supply of Steinberger necks closed off due to the end of Steinberger production, Lorenzo built Kleins using Moses Graphite necks, then later switched to carving them out of rosewood.  These instruments had now evolved to being full customs at high prices.  I believe that production and finishing of the components was largely farmed out, but the critical assembly, fretwork, and setup were all done in the small shop. In this respect, Klein Electric is more like Sadowsky than Alembic.
 
A couple of years ago, Lorenzo develop some sort of illness and seemed to fall off the grid, apparently leaving orders in progress hanging.  Although you hear rumors of occasional guitars from Lorenzo coming out, I believe that production is largely stopped.  
 
I met Steve Klein at a NAMM show and bought a copy of his book from him.  I think the electric guitar venture was not a happy time for him, and he didn't have anything to say about it.  In fact, he  was there in association with a Japanese acoustic guitar manufacturer who was building a new design of his and, frankly, he didn't seem to crazy about that product either.  
 
I don't know the story about the Taylor bass.  I've played them and they were a very nice take on the acoustic bass guitar.  I suspect that the high price and low sales probably just caused it not to be economically viable for a big company like Taylor.
 
I think the story here is much the normal of a small boutique luthier with a good measure of success.  Unlike the corporate giants or the big shops, the small shops are just operating on tiny numbers of instruments moving through, so the moves that they make aren't reflective of a big strategic plan.
 
David Fung

[bigredbass]

Thanks, David.
 
J o e y

[JimmyJ]

Hey friends,
 
Not to re-hijack the thread but I thought I'd join in on the signature part of the discussion...  
 
As you guys have inferred, I think the concept of signature models was to simply offer an instrument that LOOKS like those played by the signers, built by the same company, at a somewhat more affordable price level - about 1/2 that of a full-blown custom Series model.  It's a way of introducing players to the vast world we know as Alembic.
 
When Susan and Mica approached me about it (can't remember the year) I was surprised, honored, and slightly embarrassed.  It was explained in the beginning that it would only be a facsimile of my original instrument and not an exact copy.  I tried to convince them there was absolutely NO market for a JJ model and I can't imagine they ever sold very many.  But again, it may have served as an introduction to the company for some players.  Anybody who did enough research to discover the signature models would then likely take the next step and discover the anything you can think of Series models.
 
And as we all know here, if any of us were to step onstage and play Stanley's actual bass through Stanley's bass rig we would NOT sound like Stanley.  We would sound like ourselves.  So the whole idea of buying an instrument to emulate your favorite player is odd to me.  Alembic will build anything you want - including an exact duplicate (I saw what I thought was my own bass hanging in the spray booth last year - built for a Japanese buyer.  Freaky!)
 
Raymond, you may not realize that Alembic doesn't do endorsements.  I bought all my instruments and I believe SC, MK, Entwistle, etc, all did as well.  When a young player in a band starts to get recognition very often they are offered free instruments from companies like Yamaha, Fender, etc... in exchange for promotion.  (Ironic because if they're getting recognition at that level it usually means they can afford to BUY whatever they want but more often than not will just play whatever is given to them...)  It takes a certain kind of player, one who continues to seek something special, to find their way to Alembic.  
 
I always think of Alembic as the Rolls Royce of basses but you know, some people would rather drive a pickup...
 
Jimmy J

[keith_h]

Hey, I drive a pickup! It carries my equipment much better than a Rolls Royce any day of the week. :-D  
 
Keith

[David Houck]

Hah!!
 
Here's to Alembics in trucks!

[88persuader]

None of the musicians with signature basses received SPECIAL DEALS from Alembic to allow them to use their names??? Now that is interesting and surprising! Probably why so few star bass players use Alembics. After all, beyond selling CDs and concert tickets, making industry deals involving their star status is how professional musicians survive. Well more power to Alembic if they're happy with their business status without using endorsements and hats off to the stars who would rather pay to use Alembics then make endorsement deals with someone else!

[bigredbass]

Ah, but endorsement deals can bite you in the Floyd Rose:  
 
Here in NashVegas several years ago, an up-and-coming bassist managed to get signed to several deals with several companies, who were kept in the dark by this cat about the other deals.  He was so fortunate he wound up in BASS PLAYER one month in two different ads for two different companies, pictured with their respective basses, who promptly yanked the deals!  Lawyers were involved.
 
I can think of two Sig models that involve succesful collaborations for those involved, and the artists have been pretty faithful about them:
 
-The Ibanez George Benson series.  The GB has been a steady seller for Ibanez, and evidently sufficient for George to be seen with them a lot of the time.
 
-Rudy Sarzo has been with Hartley Peavey forever, his latest RS being based on the Cirrus axes.
 
Jimmy, does Allen use his Carvins much in your road dates?
 
I think ALEMBIC has the right to do whatever they think is best, and I imagine by NOT giving axes away they save themselves a lot of 'Spinal Tap' moments.  Though I'm sure Ron could REALLY make one go to eleven . . . .
 
J o e y

[sonicus]

J o e y,    
              I have seen ads and pictures of those Cirrus axes, but I have never played one . What is your opinion of those ?

[bigredbass]

IF you try one of the Mississippi-built basses, I feel like you will be very impressed.  While these Peaveys are not the price-point leaders that their axes once were, for me it's easily one of the best and most overlooked neck-thrus out there.  The pickups are very nice, sorta between  Music Man and an AXY, though I'm no fan of onboard 3-band from anyone.  The body is barely thicker than the neck which may or may not feel a bit strange to some.  Can't be had in every wood known to man, but all the usual suspects are there.  And it's a typically-Peavey solid piece, built to last.
 
And they are often stuck at dealers, and can also be had fairly cheap the second time around as well.
I've always been a big Hartley Peavey fan, and I applaud him for sticking with these things when bolt-ons seem to be the fashion these days.
 
J o e y

[sonicus]

Thanks for your response. Next time I see one of those Cirrus neck -thrus , (Mississippi -built) hanging in a shop I am going to check it out a bit closer and play it .

[toma_hawk01]

Jimmyj,
 
I really appreciate what you said about people would always sound like themselves; even if they strapped on Stanley's actual bass. I totally agree with you...
 
But I wonder if Stanley believe this?
 
Both Armand Sabal Lecco and Lewis Johnson both owns Alembic basses, however when invited by Stanley to play, why would both bassist use  some other bass instead of the Alembics they own?  
 
Also, why would bassist Victor Wooten, who also owned Alembics, use another bass when around Stanley?
 
Yeah, I read all the reasons and theories, but it just seems like too many great bassist steer away from Alembics when playing with Clarke on tour, or in recording sessions.    
 
I would had loved to see and listened to more than one Alembic rumble on stage with Stanley, but from the looks of him and his management, maybe under some agreement, Alembics are reserved for only Stanley to play... and that's no mystery either.  
 
 
Peace and Love,
 
Hal-
 
 
(Message edited by toma_hawk01 on July 21, 2010)