Author Topic: Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!  (Read 909 times)

rogertvr

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2008, 07:18:37 AM »
Roger, could it be that a graphite neck with a truss rod is more susceptible to those changes, than a graphite neck without one?
 
I don't know, Adriaan.  I don't think I'd be too keen on any neck without a truss rod in it to be honest and I don't own one.

adriaan

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2008, 07:25:26 AM »
Just thinking out loud!

white_cloud

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2008, 10:12:53 AM »
There are an awful lot of graphite neck instruments out there without truss rods! Most made by such estimed people like Steinberger, Status, zon, Vigier etc.
 
It is sobering to think that in theory such a high quality basses could have a potentially problematic necks with no means of adjustment!

keith_h

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2008, 01:55:28 PM »
Keep in mind we are not talking the same type of problems you see with wood. I would never expect  the twists and warps you see with wood in a graphite neck. Also depending upon how you set your action you might not even notice a change in the neck relief.  
 
As to why they can change, in addition to string tension I suspect interaction between the fretboard and neck. Depending upon the fretboard material I would expect it to heat and cool at a different rate than the graphite. I'm not a chemist or physicist but would not be surprised that this could cause changes to the neck relief  even after the parts have reached the same temperature. If the fretboard were wood I would also expect humidity to have some involvement.  
 
As has been mentioned not all folks like the relief the neck has been manufactured with. So a truss rod also helps here.  
 
Keith

white_cloud

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2008, 03:02:47 AM »
Some very thorough and knowledgeable responses on this subject! Thanks folks

dfung60

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2008, 11:28:54 PM »
I'm surprised at the seasonal changes that rogertvr mentions with this Status basses, but that is what the truss rod is there for.  With a wood neck instrument, the seasonal variation is attributable to the change in humidity that goes with the seasons for most of us.  
 
For what it's worth, I have a Status Stealth headed 5-string of pretty recent vintage and haven't noticed any changes in action during the year (I live in Northern California though where seasonal change is pretty minimal).  One thing I have noticed about the Status instruments is that the truss rod has much more prounounced effect than a Modulus with truss rod.
 
The Status construction uses pretty much the same materials and process as Modulus, but the necks are a true one-piece construction, where Modulus is two-piece.  Modulus lays up the pre-preg fabric in a mold then bonds two pieces together to form a monocoque structure.  It looks like the Status stuff is done by creating a foam core and wrapping pre-preg fabric around that core.  It's probably easier to tool up a mold to make foam cores than one that directly forms the neck, and another plus of the Status process would be that you should be able to hand cut any shape in the foam buck rather than have to fabricate a mold.  I'm pretty sure this is how the German Basslab basses are made, many with really crazy shapes, but I haven't ever had a chance to look inside one of these.
 
There are a couple of Status models where there is a wood neck with a cosmetic graphite skin on top.  I think this is how the Kingbass is made, but could be wrong about that.
 
There's a HUGE difference in expansion of the graphite neck and phenolic fingerboard of a Modulus or Status bass.  The graphite is very stable, the phenolic has a lot more expansion and is very similar to wood.  The phenolic material is actually formed out of sheets of something like kraft paper that is permeated with resin and squeezed under pressure.  The end grain of the paper is exposed to the environment and will swell with humidity.
 
I have the original fingerboard of a Modulus of mine (for many years my #1 bass) that delaminated and had to be disassembled and reconstructed by the factory.  The phenolic fingerboard was stripped from the graphite underlayment (the thick flat graphite plate that is bonded on the back of the neck to form the graphite monocoque, or tube structure), so there's a coating of epoxy on one side still.  The neck was defretted first, so the fret slots in the top are bare, but I've been suprised to see the fingerboard has developed a significant bow since it was liberated from the rest of the neck.  Over the course of 4-5 years, the raw fingerboard has developed a bow of almost 2.5(!).  A little of that is probably from the fret slots, but I think most of that must be the differential absorbtion of the raw phenolic vs. the side that has epoxy on it.  I don't think a wood fingerboard would warp that much.
 
I think this is actually part of the reason that the glue joint in this neck failed.  This is actually a bit of a design weakeness in early Modulus necks.  The gluing surface between the main neck piece and underlayment are the two milled flats, each of which is the thickness of the graphite structure.  Since these necks are laid up by hand, this can vary from neck to neck, and sometimes the width of the gluing surface can be quite thin - less than 1/4.  Impacts on the neck, or a hot trunk can weaken that narrow joint pretty easily.  The phenolic fingerboard on the other hand is bonded by it's full width to the underlayment - a much stronger bond.  If the fingerboard is applying spring force to the underlayment, that would stress the critical glue joint even more.  By the mid-80's  they were laying more material in the region of the nut so there would be a larger gluing surface.
 
David Fung

white_cloud

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 04:46:56 AM »
What bass do you prefer David, the Modulus or the Status? John.

dfung60

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 10:17:21 PM »
John -
 
The Modulus and Status basses are both excellent instruments.  I have accumulated many, many Modulus instruments over the years vs. just one Status.  I'm close friends with Geoff Gould who started Modulus which is part of the reason/problem.  On the other hand, Status instruments are very rare birds here in the US.  If I had to pick one, I would opt for the Modulus as it's a better balance of traditional tone with composite characteristics (really extended low end, long sustain).
 
I had been looking for a Status S2 for a number of years, which is a neck-through graphite-necked instrument with a wood body.  I had only been able to find bolt-on Status basses in my casual looking around.  The Stealth popped up through a mutual acquaintence at a NAMM show.  One of the US Status dealers was ending his distributorship and sold the Stealth to me for a very good price.  The Stealth is a one-piece, all-graphite bass (neck and body).  It's very light and tonally quite different than the S2, probably not in a really positive way.  I have a couple of Modulus Flight Monocoque basses which are also one-piece all-graphite basses (more in a Steinberger style, headless with a compact body) which are somewhat similar in tone to the Stealth.
 
The problem with these hollow, all-graphite instruments is that they have a somewhat thin tone with very little punch.  
 
I would generally characterize the Status instruments as slightly brigher than typical Modulus instruments.  The early Modulus basses, which used a stiffer and lighter construction have tone that's closer to Status.  
 
I am lucky to have an Alembic Series II with Modulus neck.  It's just awesome - the combination of the Modulus neck with the Alembic electronics is hard to beat, although this is not a very traditional tone.
 
One of the most notable composite instruments are the Steinberger basses.  I've got a bunch of these as well.  Although the compact bodied models are all composite, they're tonally quite different than the Modulus or Status, probably because it's a totally different style of construction and materials.  They have a lot of punch and long sustain, but interestingly, not that much low end.  They're great instruments, but quite different and distinctive.
 
I also have a Parker Fly bass, which is a very light wood neck with a graphite overlay.  It's a very different instrument leaning more toward the highs than the lows (it's actually very similar to the Stealth).  It's a very interesting bass to observe from the standpoint of construction as almost everything in the instrument is different or unusual (laminated wood body, unusual shape and electronics, tangless frets, etc.).
 
David Fung

0vid

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2008, 02:24:32 AM »
Thanks David for the illumination. I still regret humming ad hawing over a Series one graphite lefty when one turned up for sale - the seller didn't have the DSR 5 so I stalled and it eventually went to someone else.
 
My main bass is a status bolt on headless on a body I built with Alembic guts. It virtually never goes out of tune. It is a pre truss rod one. Thankfully I am happy with the relief. You can see the diamond weave on the status and it is much nicer to look at.
 
I also have a Moses necked bass. It is a J neck on a P body. It is cast resin and appears a dull black. If you want to see a 'graphite neck' FLEX, string up a Moses.....the strings rub against the fingerboard until you are in tune to standard pitch. You can see the peghead flex too. I think my moses has a truss rod... and I remember when I set up the instrument I was thinking is this going to work? It did and plays fine. But the Status neck to me is much better produced. If I can convince Rob Green to make lefty replacement Fender necks I'd get them for sure (though it would be nice if they offered a choice of frets).
 
I should have had another Moses neck, a fretless lefty by now for a custom lefty body with Fatboys, but it has been lost between Royal Mail and USPS for 4 months now and that, as the saying goes, is another story altogether.

white_cloud

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2008, 04:56:20 AM »
Wow David, what an incredible collection..and a very cool answer!
 
The only Graphite necked bass I ever owned was a vigier passion. It was a neck through and had a bewildering tonal capacity! It was used on a couple of albums by the Scottish band Hue and cry (if I remember correcly I traded my vintage 70's jazz for it.) I hit financial trouble at the end of the eighties and it had to go. It was one of the finest instruments that I had the pleasure of owning! I had a Wal custom around the same time, it was also incredible, but not as user friendly as the Vigier - i.e. the necks on Wals were hard for a lot of players (including me)to live with!  
 
Im a great admirer of Status basses, but have never actually owned one. They are certainly common here in the UK ( Modulus basses certainly are not! ) and are very affordable! In fact I am without a backup bass for my Alembic at the moment and was toying with blowing my Alembic no 2 fund on a bolt on status custom walnut model ( much much cheaper than even an Epic here ) Im not sure if I would live to regret this..choices choices!
 
I mean, with my luck I would probably buy the status then a cheap Epic would appear the next day and I would be thinking (not for the first time) what if??

lp75

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2008, 10:55:28 PM »
David,
 
Hi, I am new here.  
I'd like your opinion here, and from what I have read, you may be more qualified than anyone I have ever heard on the subject of old Modulus basses.
 
Back in 1984, I was witness to Phil Lesh using his first Modulus 6-string instrument on stage with the GD.  On into 1985, and his tone was - and still is - my ultimate Nirvana of bass tone.
 
I own a new Modulus Quantum, and am aware of the differences in these instruments.  But I still seek that elusive TONE that was produces from the early graphite through-necks.
 
What hope do I have of ever obtaining an instrument that can get me there?  I narrowly missed the opportunity to get a production TBX Q5 from 1991, and now I feel that I may never get another chance. Nobody is building such instruments - not even Jeff Gould. What can I do?
 
Thanks,
LP

dfung60

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2008, 02:29:08 AM »
LP -  
 
Thanks for the kudos.
 
Having handled a lot of Modulus instruments, there are definitely big differences in sound between the very early production (70's through early 80's) and the instruments that were made after the mid-80's. There's a number of reasons for this, but it seems to me that there were changes in the  materials and construction that led to changes in the tone too.   The pre-polygon finish necks have an extended high end that's probably reflective of a stiffer grade of graphite pre-preg.  Most of the polygon necks are darker sounding.  The really early ones (crystal finish) sound the best to me, but they're also much more likely to fail.
 
By their nature, through-body Modulus basses sound different than bolt-ons.  The bolt-ons already have more sustain in the bass and highs than a wood bass, and the through-bodies have even more - so much so that it almost sounds compressed to my ears, with a really high sustain level.  
 
There's another difference I suspect is often in play.  It's very difficult to build a through-body bass, relative to a bolt-on.  Each step along the way is complicated because you're constantly handling a larger assembly which is a more difficult shape to work on.  Obviously, there's greater risk if you make an error that you'll lose the entire bass.  
 
As I mentioned earlier, Modulus necks are assembled by cutting pieces of mono-directional pre-preg and assembling them in the mold to engineer the strength and stiffness.  On the regular production bolt-on necks, they make enough of them that they can tweak the recipe so that the neck will pull into proper relief under string tension.  On unusual/custom instruments (all through-bodies were in this catagory), they sometimes would use a different, stiffer, and more expensive graphite fabric to make sure that there wouldn't be too much relief.  This stiffer graphite was the same stuff that the earliest necks were made of.  Because it doesn't flex as much, they often required more work to finish the fretwork, but these special instruments were going to require more work anyway.
 
I have a bunch of necks with the stiffer material, some of which were old instruments (a through-body Bassstar 4) and a couple of early 90's instruments that were built with this stuff because they were odd customs.  One of them was a bolt-on 8-string bass that has the same neck shape as an M92 5-string, but in the stiffer graphite.  It's the most amazing thing I've ever heard and quite different than a regular M92 (I've got one of those too).  
 
The production of through-body basses was so disruptive to the normal production at Modulus that they pretty much stopped making them except for the occasional celebrity instrument after Geoff left.  These days, Modulus has been running a very tight ship and I don't think they make any through-body instruments at all.  
 
The good part is that Modulus instruments in the aftermarket aren't commanding stratospheric prices (just my luck!).  Since they would be pretty much impossible to repair (Modulus definitely won't do that anymore), you do need to exercise caution when purchasing that you can get your hands on it before the sale is permanent.  
 
In current production, I think the Status S2 Classic is actually pretty close to the old Modulus sound if you can find a through-body.  I believe that the Status Empathy is pretty much the same model.  The sound of the few Status basses that I've played is more reminiscent of the older Modulus than the current production.  
 
David Fung

kilowatt

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2008, 06:57:08 AM »
Lp,
Bass Cental actually has a 91 TBX for sale. I think Beaver was looking for $2400.00 for it. I am always looking out for the old TBX's, but I would prefer a different color than red. I missed one on e-Bay about 5 years ago that I believe had a coco-bola top on it. I should have grabbed it at the Buy it now price. Live and learn.
 
Regards,
Pete

lp75

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2008, 12:31:53 AM »
Thanks David.
I've been curious about the Status basses, but have yet to see or try one in person.
 
Before reading your posts, I was unaware of the different material types used on old Modulus necks, and I was unclear on the potential problems. You have cleared that up well.  
 
I suppose I will just enjoy my Modulus (I had it modded by Mike Lull, and it sounds fantastic!) and keep an eye out for other graphite instruments.
 
My other thought lately is to save up the money to buy an Alembic 5 string with the filter electronics and those ebony neck lams - I have a strong suspicion one of those may make me forget about everything else.
 
Kilowatt: I just missed a '91 TBX 5 in December that I could have had for an even $2k - but narrowly lost out.  I have been aware of that toilet seat red TBX at Bass Central for over a year, and it's just a bit too ugly!  
 
LP

white_cloud

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2008, 02:41:00 AM »
Staus basses are plentiful and reasonably affordable (much more so than an Alembic!) here in the UK!
 
There are various models/incarnations available, but the best ones are undoubtedly superb instruments!
 
The 100% graphite basses produced by Status are nice but Im always more impressed with the graphite /exotic wood instruments that they produce!
 
John.