Author Topic: Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!  (Read 894 times)

bsee

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 08:33:41 PM »
It's also true that different constructions of graphite sound different.  I think the Modulus necks, especially when they made them neck-thru, sound sterile.  You might as well play a block of granite.  The bolt-on versions are a little better.  On the other hand, Joe Zon's graphite neck Sonus bass sounds very much like a maple-boarded Jazz bass to my ears.
 
Between the different neck constructions, ways of mating them to bodies, and wood constructions to which they are attached, I think it's unfair to generalize as thoroughly as Steve did here.
 
As far as graphite necks moving, I believe they are susceptible to changes in string pressure, but not the weather.  That's different from wood necks which will move with either.  
 
The Zon fretboards are a composite of wood and other materials.  Again, I don't think you can generalize as different manufacturers build differently.

dfung60

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 11:09:00 PM »
Normally, I burst in on the graphite discussions earlier, but have been swamped lately!  
 
As some of you long-time viewers already know, I'm a big Modulus fan and have been close friends with Geoff Gould who developed the original Modulus neck in conjunction with Alembic for many years now.  So, we've chattered about why things were done the way they were many times in the past.
 
The interesting thing about building things out of composite materials is that you can engineer the characteristics of the final piece fairly precisely and repeatably.  You'd have a hard time building a one piece wood neck that had specific stiffness or resonant frequency.  You can get closer by laminating the neck, since the layers in opposition can counteract some of the natural irregularities in the wood.  With something like a graphite neck, you can build in a very specific stiffness and you can control where the stiffness is directed.  You see this to a greater extent in composite stuff like bike frames or golf club shafts, where they can engineer flex in in one direction and stiffness in a different direction.  
 
When Geoff first got the idea of building a graphite bass neck, he was working at Ford Aerospace in Palo Alto, CA as a technician and composites fabricator.  He was making satellite parts, totally cutting edge stuff at the time.  These sorts of applications are totally weight-conscious - lifting a payload was monumentally expensive and very limited, so if you couldn't hit a weight target, you just couldn't do that mission.  The strength of engineered graphite vs. steel, aluminum, or titanium was so much greater that they could use a lot less material for the same strength.  
 
This is where the idea for the Modulus neck came from.  Geoff saw Phil Lesh battling neck dive at a Dead show and thought that a lighter-weight graphite neck would solve the problem.  He ended up talking with Alembic who built the first instruments with graphite necks, and the rest was history.
 
The lack of a trussrod in the original Modulus design was intentional on Geoff's part.  From a purist's standpoint, he wanted the entire tension of the string, from end to end, to be borne only by graphite.  The graphite material he used was exactly the same stuff that he was buiding satellite parts and Indy car tubs from, a graphite fabric that was impregnated with epoxy resin.  Sheets of the pre-preg were cut and laid in a mold which was then cooked under heat and pressure in a giant autoclave until the resin cured and locked the graphite fibers into a solid matrix.  The pre-preg fabric is unidirectional - the fibers all run parallel to each other - so you can engineer the performance of the parts by adjusting the direction that the grain of the graphite fibers and overlapping them in different directions.  The material is thermoset, which means that the heat changes the material.  The fabric is flexible before it's cooked, but after the curing reaction it is pretty impervious to heat and humidity.  This is different than a thermoplastic material which is molded to a shape under heat, but will change again if you re-heat it later.
 
Even today, Modulus and Status necks are built using this process (Vigier was like this too back when they had graphite necks).  Modulus necks are multi-piece assemblies which are laid up in molds.  Status instruments are made by wrapping the pre-preg around a styrofoam core, basically the same process that you use to make surfboards.  The Steinberger and Moses necks are made with a different process, where the neck is poured from a liquid resin around a graphite backbone.  The latter necks gain strength and stiffness from the backbone, but the structural characteristics aren't as controllable as the monocoque structure of Modulus necks (of course, the Steinberger and Moses necks are poured from a uniform material, so there is less variation than wood).  
 
The resulting neck in a Modulus is really strong and stiff relative to wood, but still flexes under string tension, which it was intended to do.  You can make a super-strong neck that doesn't flex or deflect at all under string tension, but this requires use of a stronger and more expensive pre-preg fabric.  If you handled a Modulus or Steinberger, you'll immediately notice that, if anything, it's heavier than a wood neck rather than lighter.  That's because the neck could be engineered to flex to the proper position under tension using less exotic materials which were heavier.  
 
The earliest Modulus necks were made of these super-strong fabrics.  A couple of years ago, a very old six-string Quantum through-body appeared on eBay.  It turned out that this instrument, the second or third Modulus-logo'ed bass had been stolen from Geoff's office years before.  The seller (who had purchased the instrument at a pawn shop) returned the instrument to Geoff, who was surprised to find that this BEADGC bass had it's regular low-B strings on it but was tuned up a fourth like a guitar!  It was actually still playable, although I would insist on safety goggles and a full face shield before I'd touch it myself.  There's no way that a wood neck could handle that sort of tension.  And yes, these very old Modulus necks defintitely have a different tone than the regular production.
 
If there's a sonic advantage to no trussrod, there's certainly a physical disadvantage which is that you can't easily fine tune the action for your playing style and desired strings.  As has been mentioned above, if you want to modify the relief, it needs to be done via a very expert fret milling. Ultimately, this is why all the makers of composite necks today have trussrods.  The latitude of change in these necks is much less than the trussrod would yield in a wood neck, but sufficient to tune for different strings and desired action.  
 
This helps make the instruments more produceable as well.  In the case of Modulus, the secret recipe of the materials and construction is carefully tuned so that the fretboard can be planed to dead level and frets installed dead level under no tension, then will pull into the desired target relief when strung up.  Over time as the materials change, they need to adjust the fabrication instructions to compensate, and this slowed down production because transitional instruments needed to have additional fretwork before they could go out the door.
 
Incidentally, the fingerboard on Modulus, Status, and original Steinberger is phenolic, the very first composite material.  The graphite is way too hard to be shaped into a playing surface (it will quickly dull regular tools).  Geoff considered a wood fingerboard but was concerned that it might not be stable since wood can be very subject to expansion with humidity and heat.  He ended up selecting phenolic because it's easy to work (pretty much the same as wood) and aesthetically he wanted the neck not to have any wood in it.
 
The graphite in a Modulus neck is fabricated in two pieces - a main molded U-shaped part that has the shape of the back of a guitar neck and a thick flat plate that it bonded on to the top of the U.  Together they form a monocoque tube which structurally is stronger than a solid neck (and saves on expensive materials as well).  The phenolic fingerboard is epoxied on top of the flat piece.  
 
The individual pieces are REALLY strong and stable.  If properly constructed they won't bend, twist, or warp over time.  It turns out that that's actually the Achilles heel of the Modulus neck.  The curved main part is cooked in a mold, then the open side of the U is milled with a carbide tool to be dead flat and the flat piece is bonded on top of that.  The problem arises when the milling doesn't done properly.  This can leave an internal tension in the neck assembly where the parts want to spring apart with only the epoxy bond holding them together.  Ultimately, a neck like this can fail and split along the bond line.  This is the dreaded delamination which is largely fatal for Modulus necks as it requires the neck to be completely disassembled, remilled, reassembled, refretted, etc.  Even with perfectly machined parts, the epoxy bond line is actually not that strong relative to the neck pieces and can be compromised by heat or when an instrument takes a dive off the stand. I think most of the reports of warped necks are actually delaminations (actually, it is a warp that's causing this).
 
I don't think you can find a better sounding instrument that a Series bass with Modulus neck.  But it's got to be a nightmare for both Alembic and Modulus.  Unlike regular Modulus production (which is mostly bolt-ons), graphite Alembics were very rare, so there was much less opportunity to tune the neck recipe for easy setup.  The threat of a delamination is bad enough on a bolt-on where you have to scrap the neck, but a nightmare on a through-body where it could potentially lead to a non-repairable instrument.  For these rare instruments (by all accounts much less than 100 total), there was also some jockeying around about exactly how they were made - Modulus always fabricated the parts, but in some cases the neck assembly was done at Alembic (where they had less experience but could maintain more control) and some at Modulus (where they had more assembly experience but no insight into how the neck would be mated to the body).  
 
I was fortunate to have a Series II graphite neck made back around 1987, probably one of the last.  I have no issues with stability although the action was never quite to my liking out of the factory (insufficent relief).  Years later, I had this corrected in a very expensive fret mill by the builder who did most of Modulus' custom shop work, but even with his level of experience, it was hard to convince him to take on the job as he was concerned about disturbing the side LEDs in the event that he had to remove a fret.  He didn't have to and it all worked out OK for my bass in the end though.
 
The fab process of graphite necks is so radically different than the woodworking that goes into a wood-necked Alembic, that it's not suprising that it's not offered anymore. Not only is it hard to manufacture, but you lose the ability to customize profile, scale length, and more.  
 
David Fung

white_cloud

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2008, 01:18:17 AM »
Thanks for that David, that was extremely interesting and has fully replaced my lack of knowledge/curiosity with a real understanding of this material!
 
I always loved the sound of graphite necked instruments. When I bought my Vigier ( 1980's) I actually had to choose between that or a top of the range Warwick streamer (a relatively new kid on the block in the world of bass.) After playing both extensively there was no choice for me..the Graphite Vigier sound was on a different level altogether!
 
In a way, it is nice to know that it is out there somewhere still sounding great...and with, in all probability, no neck woes!

funkyjazzjunky

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2008, 06:47:24 AM »
Thank you David,
 
Two quick questions:
 
What is the differnce between Carbon Fiber neck and Graphite neck?
 
What about heat/sun induced expansion with graphite?

artswork99

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2008, 08:58:13 AM »
Talking about no truss and graphite lets mention another bass here.  The Hyak bass neck uses both wood and graphite and does not have a truss rod (I wish it did).  I know that the Alembic factory has, at one time, put a truss into Robert's Hyak.  I'd love to have that done someday to mine.  The bass has been well cared for over the years and fortunately the neck is in excellent condition.  I can still do a great setup but the relief is all based on string tension.  I am in the same place David was with his Series II - the action has never quite been where I want it.

funkyjazzjunky

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2008, 02:23:03 PM »
Thank you David,  
 
Two quick questions:  
 
What is the differnce between Carbon Fiber neck and Graphite neck?  
 
What about heat/sun induced expansion with graphite?

dfung60

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2008, 02:56:47 PM »
Carbon fiber = graphite in this case.  Graphite is the name for a particular form of carbon where the atoms are stacked up in sheets (that's how pencils write - the graphite sheets in the lead slide off onto the paper leaving a mark).  Diamonds are also carbon with a different crystalline arrangement.
 
The carbon fibers are created from graphite which is why you see both terms.  
 
Most people are familiar with the woven black checkerboard appearance of graphite items, like on the dashboard of your Ferrari (note, I didn't say my Ferrari).  The graphite fabric used in a Modulus neck has the fibers aligned side by side and is super-strong doesn't look all that interesting.  The surface that you see of a Modulus neck (and, I think that Ferrari dashboard) is actually a cosmetic layer that's there for a nice appearance rather than for structural reasons.  Modulus has had a number of different surface finishes over time including different weave patterns, checkerboards and crystals.  Since the 80's they've pretty much always had a sort of big polygon shape on the back of the neck.  This is the linear graphite material cut up into angular pieces and laid into the mold before the structural pieces.
 
Once you've cooked and cured the graphite item, there's very little thermal expansion, even in direct sun (certainly less than any wood or metal).  A Modulus neck is made of two pieces of graphite though, so there may be some differential expansion when one piece is heated and the other isn't.  Again, this is pretty stressful on the glue joint.
 
When you want to make a wood neck, you can simply plane off any wood you don't want to reshape the neck.  With graphite necks, you need to make a wooden form that is similar to the shape of the final neck, then a mold needs to be created, and the neck materials are placed in the mold to fab a neck.  If you don't like the resultant neck profile, you really need to go back and remake the mold as it's pretty hard to cut or sand the cured graphite parts.  Each different neck configuration - short, medium, long, extra-long scales, 4-, 5-, and 6-string necks each need to have their own mold.  The molds are actually made of graphite as well.  If you made the mold of any other material, the heat of cooking the necks would cause the mold to expand differently and you'd end up with a warped neck.
 
David Fung

Bradley Young

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2008, 05:45:25 PM »
David,
 
I've always wondered-- I know that an autoclave (heat + pressure during curing) is the right way (i.e. most professionals, especially at the high end/non-cosmetic do it this way) to cure CF parts.
 
However, after seeing a bunch of vacuum bagging layups, I've wondered if something semi-structural, like a guitar neck (or guitar case, for that matter) would be eligible for this type of layup.  It would be interesting, since it could drive the cost and prototyping/change timeframe down significantly, but more importantly open things up to us amateurs.
 
Thoughts?
 
Bradley

dfung60

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2008, 08:44:49 PM »
At Modulus, the mold fixture with the laid-up pre-preg is all inside a vacuum bag that has pressure fittings and all.  The autoclave pressure is much higher than the vacuum bag though (I don't really know what the purpose of the bag is).  The autoclave they use is big - it's a cylindrical thing that's probably 10' feet long and at least 4' in diameter.  The length of the neck is the determining factor and they run only 2-3 necks at a time.  It's heated, but I seem to remember them saying that it's not any hotter than a cool oven (of course the pressure creates the effect of it being much higher).
 
In the two examples you cite (neck and case), the composite *is* the structural part, so I think it's a different situation than than a non-structural part like a pre-preg skin on top of a metal or plastic part.
 
The Steinberger and Moses-type construction, which is more of a cast resin structure is probably easier to do on a amateur basis.  I don't know too much of the specifics of how Moses is made, but the Steinberger composite construction was the process that's used to make boat hulls.
 
David Fung

David Houck

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2008, 07:50:52 AM »
David; as always, thanks!

Bradley Young

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2008, 08:09:14 AM »
David,
 
My thinking would be that the vacuum is there to pull the resin through the fiber without bubbles.  Vacuum bagging is all about getting the resin into the fiber, and the autoclave is for curing.
 
Roll-on or brushed layouts almost always have bubbles in them, and they are bad cosmetically and structurally.

rogertvr

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2008, 06:10:07 AM »
Graphite necks will move, and anyone who says that they don't or can't is flat-out wrong.
 
Absolutely spot-on. Both of my Status Graphite Buzzards and my Stealth all require a quarter turn of their respective truss rods in the autumn, and a quarter turn in the opposite direction in the spring. That was one of the first things Rob Green at Status has told me on the occasions I purchased these basses. The rest of the time though, they're completely stable.
 
I'm not sure what the significance of autumn and spring is though, but I can almost predict the day they will move on!

rogertvr

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2008, 06:18:20 AM »
I recently read an article about a buzzard bass made for John Entwhistle by the English company Status entirely from carbon fibre. Apparantly one day the instrument for no reason just totally shattered!
 
That was one of the two prototype instruments that was made for John by Status Graphite. I believe neither of them had serial numbers and one survives - the other one failed.
 
When I ordered my Buzzard, I did ask Rob Green about the failure and he told me that there was a problem with the failed prototype instrument and that the problem had been resolved for production models.

adriaan

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2008, 06:55:25 AM »
Roger, could it be that a graphite neck with a truss rod is more susceptible to those changes, than a graphite neck without one?
 
I also remember a thread here a while ago of a member who had a graphite neck that turned unplayable on a very hot day, in direct sunlight.
 
(Message edited by adriaan on January 11, 2008)

lbpesq

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Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2008, 07:11:39 AM »
The Bond Electraglide was a guitar made in Scotland  in 1984-85 - about 1400 total production. The entire guitar was made from carbon fiber, except the fingerboard which was anodized aluminum with steps instead of frets.
 
Bill, tgo