Graphite neck /truss rod confusion!

[white_cloud]

Hey there Alembic folk,
at the risk of sounding like Im stupid or something I was thinking back to when I owned a Vigier graphite necked passion bass. It had no truss rod fitted as at the time, the unforgetable 1980's, everyone was heralding graphite as a miracle guitar material that would never ever ever ever move and be totally stable until the end of time!
 
I have noticed now that companies like Status etc are fitting all of their modern bass necks with truss rods..am I missing something here? I was under the impression that carbon graphite was extremely stiff..so how can a truss rod adjust such a material?  
 
Obviously I have moved away from graphite and back to good old timber, but I just dont get it all the same??
 
Could someone explain this to me or else it will keep me awake at night

[keith_h]

It's easy to answser. ;-)
While graphite is more stable than wood at can and does change with conditions. Also not everyone likes the same relief which is set when the neck is made. The truss rods resolve both problems.  
 
I think the 80's graphite statements are just another case of hyping of a new material before all of its characteristics were really known.  
 
Keith

[white_cloud]

Thanks Keith.  
 
Therefore anyone with a non-truss rod graphite neck (who, like me at the time, bought such a bass to avoid neck trouble) could end up with a warped neck and no means of adjusting it!!!!!
 
That is really scary

[bsee]

Never seem a graphite neck move on its own.  Of course, all graphite necks aren't made with the same material or strength.  Graphite strips can be added to a wood neck for added stability, and those certainly move with the weather.  I would think the only reason to have a truss rod in a true graphite neck is to control the relief.

[bassman10096]

I'll echo Bob and Keith.  I've never heard of a graphite neck warping in the sense that wood can (and does).  Mostly, the repair work I've heard of has been modification to change relief from the manufactured arc of the neck.  
Bill (the other one)

[s_wood]

Graphite necks will move, and anyone who says that they don't or can't is flat-out wrong. I had a Modulus Q5 a few years ago...one of the older ones without a truss rod.  After changing strings from an unknown brand to DR HiBeams, the bass developed a pretty bad backbow and was unplayable.  I called Modulus, thinking that I would need a new neck.  I described the problem to their tech over the phone, and he replied by asking me if I was using DR's.  When I said yes, he told me to throw another brand on the bass and assured me that the problem would go away.  I thought he was either lying or crazy, but I did what he suggested and put a set of GHS Bass Boomers on the bass.  Within 2 weeks the bass was back in perfect relief. I have since learned that DR HiBeams, which are great strings IMHO, have a much lower tension than most other roundwounds of a comparable gauge.  
Bottom line: graphite necks move.

[bassman10096]

Interesting.  I guess TI flats would be a problem as well.  I owned a Modulus Genesis neck for a couple of years.  Despite the fact that it is something of a hybrid between graphite (which bears all the weight) and wood, it never moved - regardless of temp, humidity, differing string tensions.  It did have a trussrod, which I found handy occasionally when I wanted to vary the action dramatically.  Personally, I though graphite seems more predictable than most materials, I doubt I'd want one without a t-rod.

[white_cloud]

I guess the morale of this story is dont buy a non-truss rod graphite necked bass!
 
It seems strange to me that so many high end graphite basses were manufactured by extremely well known companies (status, steinberger, zon etc) with this major flaw! I for one was, at the time, sold on this miracle material. Im just glad now that I sold the Vigier graphite (I needed the money back at the time and was real sad to see her go then!)
 
Its also crazy to think that a different brand of string would affect a indestructable graphite neck in such a major way.
 
I recently read an article about a buzzard bass made for John Entwhistle by the English company Status entirely from carbon fibre. Apparantly one day the instrument for no reason just totally shattered!
 
I think that there is a lot to be said for wood!
John.

[bigredbass]

If I remember this correctly (DFung, forgive me if I'm wrong), graphite necks/instruments are thermoplastic, NOT thermoelastic:  In other words, there's no such thing as a neck heat-bend on a graphite neck.  So evidently, they were designed against a certain range of tensions, which the DR's must have fallen outside of.
 
The hell with it . . . I just like wood better.  The structural and sonic anomalies just add to the mystery.  Though the Steinberger I tried was eerie in that EVERY note sounded exactly the same on any fret and any string.
 
J o e y

[keith_h]

Joey,
You are correct about the old necks without truss rods. They are created with a certain relief calculated for a certain tension. The only way to change that to the best of my knowledge is to plane the finger board or via the fret heights.  
 
Keith

[white_cloud]

Plane a carbon fibre neck....Whoa! I wouldnt like that particular task!
 
There is a real joy in using a razor sharp plane on a nice piece of timber, but planing graphite must be a horrible chore

[bassjigga]

I have a Zon with no truss rod. So far no problem. Of course it's only like 3-4 years old.

[keith_h]

Maybe plane is not the correct word. I probably should have said machine (what type I leave up to the imagination). As I recall the fretboard is typically phenolic or something else other than graphite.  
 
Keith

[edwin]

I have a '91 Modulus 6 string neck with no truss rod and it's been fine. I use DR Sunbeams, which are lower tension than the High Beams and it sits perfectly with a light guage (30-120). I have tried different strings and they all changed the relief in different ways. The Sunbeams happily are great strings, sound great, last forever and supply the perfect amount of relief.  
 
I guess I'm just lucky because all other Modulus necks feel like clubs to me. This one is nice and flat. I'd be really bummed if anything ever happened to it.
 
Edwin

[s_wood]

One other thing: graphite necks sound quite different than wood ones.  To my ears, the difference is about the same order of magnitude as the difference in tone between a maple neck and a mahogany one. That's not a bad thing, but it is a factor to be considered. You may prefer the tone of graphite, or you may not care.  The point is that you might hate it, too.
 
(Message edited by s_wood on January 08, 2008)