Author Topic: Vector? on e-bay, NICE  (Read 1261 times)

stoney

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 396

mica

  • alembic
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10595
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2005, 11:55:40 AM »
That one is actually one of the first versions of the Vector body shape. Like all the designs, they change slightly over time as we can't seem to refrain from refining.
 
Fingerboard looks like this was played a good bit. Coupld use a oiling to clean it up. Also, the frets look a little flat, probably crowned at least once. Still looks great for almost 20 years old.

bassman10096

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1309
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2005, 03:51:25 PM »
Cool.  You don't see many of them at all...

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15595
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2005, 03:05:08 PM »
The top wood is nice.  I ran it through an editor to get a better look at the wood.

waggaboy

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2005, 03:56:52 AM »
Somebody give that fingerboard a nice oil and clean!!!  Poor thing has had a hard life and needs a good home...

pmoran

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 173
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2005, 09:12:21 AM »
i was the winning bidder. it's in absolutely excellent shape. hardly a scratch or ding. plays like a dream. really low action w/no fret buzz at all. frets are actually in good shape. fingerboard is dry so i'll do what mica suggested in an email to me and i'll buy pure lemon oil at a health food store and give it a good oiling. serial number is 86F3967. can mica or anyone else tell me more about this bass? before buying it, i knew nothing about persuaders. i was actually more interested in buying an old spoiler but was outbid for the one i wanted and bid on this as an alternative. wow, am i glad i did! this bass has incredible depth of sound and projection. it tears my epic 5 up! i can't come close to getting the sound from my epic that i can get w/just 2 controls on this bass. why is that? also, if anyone can tell me, how in the world does alembic get this kind of sound out of a bass that is so thin and light? amazing! i have 9 basses, some of which are in the 25 to 30 pound range, but none can match the power of this monster.

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15595
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2005, 09:58:19 AM »
Hi Patrick; congrats and welcome!  That top is real nice!  Without knowing anything about your Epic, I would guess that the different electronics setups account for some of the difference in sound.  Your new bass uses a low pass filter for a tone control, whereas your Epic has separate bass and treble controls.  And as for the sound, the Alembic pickups and electronics are a big part of it; plus the brass bridge, Maple neck, Mahogany body, and Maple top all add to the unique sound of your bass.

pmoran

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 173
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2005, 04:20:00 PM »
thanks for the info, dave. i've read hundreds of your posts in almost every column here. your depth of knowledge about alembics is truly amazing. i've got pedulla's, gibson's, fender's, warwick's, rickenbacker's, etc. the only thing that comes close to creating that indefinable sense of pressure that this persuader creates is my pedulla thunderbolt w/custom bartolini electronics. the previous owner of that bass replaced the standard pedulla electronics w/a top-of-the-line set of bartolini electronics (yes, i know it already had bartolini in it from the factory) and that little, light, tiny bass absolutely screams.  i began playing 35 years ago on a gibson eb-o. man, do i wish i still had that bass. i see what they sell for now, although i'm sure they sound like crap. so, i've collected several gibsons which are made from mahogany, are heavy as an anvil, and have incredible sustain. however, they don't project like my pedulla thunderbolt and it doesn't come close to the, and again i use the term for want of a better one, pressure that this persuader creates.  i thought it had something to do w/the age of the instrument. maybe something where the wood settles in, dries.........the windings on the pickups get a little rust on them and fuse creating a supermagnet effect.  i don't know. maybe i've read too many articles about keith richard's guitar tech and how he goes around buying really old gibsons, trashing the guitar and gutting the electronics so keith can still get that 60's sound out of new, better made custom guitars. maybe i think there is a constant analysis you can apply between modern guitars and violins made in cremona almost 500 years ago. am i thinking too hard? it's hard to believe, in other words, that alembic created a pickup/electonics package consisting of 2 p-style pickups, w/2 controls in '86 that outdoes a 94 epic 5 w/all the options. i've got both internal gains jammed to the max, because i play metal and really hard rock. i guess the epic just isn't suited to that style but i wanted the low B. the warwick infinity 5 i have is a complete custom job. all new aftermarket upgrade bartolini electronics, fretless and a new custom finish that's unbelievable to behold. even it outdoes the epic 5, which is disappointing to me because i know the alembic is a better bass all the way around. you can see it, feeeeeeel it, but i can't hear it!

dnburgess

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 674
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2005, 04:47:36 PM »
Patrick, without detracting from the Epic, which has its own fans, you've got to remember the Epic is Alembic's entry level model (along with the Excel and Orion).  
 
Even though Alembic's entry models are better (and, to be fair, more expensive) than most manufacturers' top of the line, there is no question that each step up the range gives better definition and bottom end weight. For your application I would strongly suggest a Rogue.
 
David B.

bob

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 808
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2005, 04:52:52 PM »
Many of us think too hard here, Patrick - welcome to the club.
 
Out of curiosity, what strings do you use (on the epic, persuader, and pedulla)? And how do you have the controls set on your persuader? Maybe a few words about your rig would also be good.
 
Might help us understand a little better what you mean by pressure, so we can speculate more on why you do or don't get it.
-Bob

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15595
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2005, 05:33:28 AM »
Patrick; I don't think it's a depth of knowledge, but excessive use of the Search feature!
 
Something I know nothing about is violins.  But I do seem to recall that an important factor in each violin's voice is the varnish.  And I think it may be the case that one reason the Strads and other old violins sound so great compared to newer violins is that the ingredients used to make the varnish in the old days are no longer available.  Or at least that's what I think I remember reading at some point.
 
(Message edited by davehouck on June 12, 2005)

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15595
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2005, 05:50:00 AM »
Well, I ran a quick search and the first article I found debunks the varnish theory.

lbpesq

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10683
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2005, 09:11:40 AM »
Very interesting article, Dave.  Thanks!  Of course they never addressed the brass sustain block, neck-thru, or early Vienese low pass filter theories!  (LOL).
 
Bill, tgo

pmoran

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 173
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2005, 01:32:25 PM »
i guess what i'm trying to say about my persuader vs. all of my other basses, and i've got a bunch of them, is that my persuader seems to extend out of the speakers w/a power i can feel, not just hear, more than any other bass i have. next to my pedulla thunderbolt, which is a tiny little thing compared to my gibson rd artist which is about 15 yards long and weighs almost 30 pounds, my persuader is the thinnest, lightest bass i have ever owned. yet, 5 or 6 feet out from my speakers it's creating a discernable, moving the hairs on my arms, kind of wind!  now, i've got a massive rig. 2 trace-elliot AH 500's, 2 2x12 cerwin-vega cabs, a peavey 18 black widow sub and an 18 behringer sub. some of my sound i'm pushing thru a behringer europower 1500, so it's a wonder i'm not sterile by now. come to think of it, maybe i am. anyway, i'm moving alot of air; however, w/all settings the same, and advancing thru my basses by switching out from the epic to a rick to a warwick to my thunderbird to the pedulla------------when i plug in the persuader, there's a throw to the sound that is astounding. i actually have to step farther from the speakers to hear it and the noticeable increase in air pressure and volume is amazing. i love this damn bass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sfnic

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 148
Vector? on e-bay, NICE
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2005, 03:03:41 PM »
Dave -  
 
(hijacking another thread)
 
I read the article you linked, and bounced it off my partner Matt.  (He's the acoustic luthier of the team, I handle the electrics.)  He pinged back with some interesting info I thought I'd pass on:
 
(GAL is the Guild of American Luthiers; ASIA is the Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans)
 
-==
 
Nic -
 
It *is* interesting.  In the GAL and ASIA worlds, however, Nagyvary's theories are not considered particularly authoritative.   There are a variety of excellent articles in the Red Books regarding Cremonese violins, violin graduation, violin voicing, and varnish, and one in particular comes to mind.  It's about Stradivari violins, and makes the point that what we hear in a Strad is emphatically not what the builder created - Antonio Stradivari created *baroque* violins, which are *very, very* different from modern violins.  Of the 700-odd Strads, all but one or two have been 'converted' to modern specs, which involves at least the following:
 
- neck angle reset, generally involving a new neck (baroque necks are set very flat by modern standards, and the old scroll is grafted onto a new neck)
 
- new modern-length ebony fingerboard (baroque fbs are very short by modern standards)
 
- new bridge (due to neck-set change)
 
- new tailpiece (cf above)
 
That's about the minimum.   Most of the rest have had the following repairs (which word I use loosely) done:
 
- replacement of wood due to worms
 
- regraduation of the top
 
- doubling of the top (where the top is thinned to .5 to 1 mm and inlaid over a sheet of new spruce)
 
- large crack fixes (one Strad in a red book article had over sixteen patches covering over seventy-five percent of the top)
 
In fact, Strad 'cellos were originally a good bit larger than they are now.  Many, many many Strad 'celli have been 'cut down' to the modern standard size, removing forever the living document of Stradivari's intentional means of building.  
 
And last, the varnish theory for Strad doesn't hold up, as described by a variety of the articles in the Red Book.  For one, luthiers of the time didn't make their varnish any more than we do today (unless we're violin luthiers trying to duplicate an old master varnish).   Typically, varnish was provided by an apothecary.  The Red Books contain a variety of contemporary recipes documented from primary source material of the time; one of them which is relatively easy to make today is what finish chemist/luthier George Manno calls the 1704 violin varnish.  It's a fairly straightforward spirit varnish - seedlac (e.g., dirty, dark shellac) with gum elemi and spike lavender oil added.  That way, the shellac finish remains reasonably flexible, which is generally considered desirable for violins.  
 
That's one of two schools....and the beginning of a quasi-religious schism.   Some finishers believe that the old masters used spirit varnishes.  Some believe they used oil varnishes.   Either way, it's not really possible to test - chemical analysis generally shows a thin film coating with various gums/mastics in the finish.  Since shellac polymerizes after about a hundred years, it becomes largely indistinguishable from the catalytic scale film created by an oil varnish.  So in truth, we'll never know.    The two folks in GAL who discuss this in an entirely civil manner are George Manno and Geary Baese....if you search on either name, you'll get extensive hits regarding finish.   Both have done a lot of work on pigmenting (Baese's articles on lake pigments are wonderful), violin ground (the finish beneath the finish, as it were) and the varnish.    It's worth the time.  
 
One thing, however, that almost everyone in the GAL agrees on: Nagyvary is off base.  If you ask some of the luthiers at Healdsburg (I'll introduce you), some of them will suggest he's smoking monkey crack.  Others will suggest that Stradivari, a working luthier without a rich patrono, couldn't have afforded the varnish they contend he applied.   And some will suggest that there's some crystallization going on between the ground and the varnish (which we've all seen - it's not dissimilar to nitro lacquer gold-haze).  
 
The cold tree thing bears some mention - if there was a little ice age (and there was) that affected the woods, then it would be reasonable to expect that Stradivari's topwood selections would show extremely tight grain (20+ rings/inch) and nearly unbelievable latitudinal stiffness.   Typically, this is not the case - the wood has anywhere from 12-20 rings per inch, showing that Stradivari selected wood that he could get.  Sometimes it came from the outer bits of the tree which would have had tighter grain, and sometimes not....like everyone else, he used what he could get.  
 
Matt
 
-==
 
nic