Vector? on e-bay, NICE

[David Houck]

Thanks Nic, and please pass a thank you on to Matt.  I had no idea that such substantial modifications had been done to Strads.  This is quite a fascinating subject; and for me, Matt's report just makes the mystery of the Strad magic that much more mysterious and amazing!

[sfnic]

Will do.  :-)

[bob]

Another thanks here, this is fascinating stuff - not quite enough to go off and research myself, but the summary is much appreciated.

[pmoran]

i'm almost sorry i started this thread. i never believed the finish on my persuader had anything to do with the sound.  i was and am still trying to find out if there is something about the age of my bass, wood-wise or otherwise including the over 20 year old pickups, than can account for the power this skinny, thin bass exhibits. both my epic and my persuader have identical strings, and the gain is maxed on each. so, w/all the controls the epic has, why does the persuader out-perform the epic across the board?  in the day, as my son says, was the persuader that much more expensive and expansive, if i may, a bass than my epic is now? thoughts.

[pmoran]

in other words, is an over 20 year old persuader that has been played, worn to a degree, still superior w/20 year old technology to a relatively new epic? that's what i'm asking.

[David Houck]

If you ordered a new 4 string Persuader today and a new 4 string Epic today, the Persuader would probably be more expensive.  Whether the Persuader technology is superior to the Epic technology is a matter of personal preference.  Basically, the technology hasn't changed that much.  Your Persuader isn't too much different from a new Essence, except that the Essence has two pickups and a pan control.  But to try to address your question, the higher cost models are all neck throughs like your Persuader, the lower cost models have set necks like your Epic, the higher cost models use a low pass filter like your Persuader, and the lower cost models use bass and treble controls like your Epic rather than a filter.  There is nothing old about the electronics in a 1986 Alembic; most of us in this group would probably find them preferable to anything else produced currently.  And the technology hasn't really changed much.  The basses are pretty much crafted in the same manner as they always have been.  And the basic idea behind the electronics is still the same.

[effclef]

Well I think Mica said the P-pickups are among the loudest Alembic ever made.  
 
Neck thru may make a difference, too.
 
Does the Persuader have a brass sustain block under the adjustable bridge?
 
The Epic controls are vol/pan/bass/treble so that is not the same as what is in your Persuader - the emphasis on certain frequencies may be built in to the Persuader. Have you tried raising the Epic pickups closer to the strings?
 
Anyone in the Club have one of the dual-P-pickup Persuaders? How do those sound? I bet it's monstrous.
 
EffClef

[mica]

Yes, the P pickups are the loudest ones we have made. The pickups are not identical through the years. We've tried a few different variations on the number of turns, and used the trim pot to adjust the gain. So it isn't terribly suprising that basses of different ages might have slightly different outputs. However, comparing the split style pickup to the MXY isn't really useful, they are constructed entirely differently, so they are practically guaranteed to sound different. Also, notice the pickup position varies between the two basses.  
 
The two basses you have are two completely different beasts. The most significant difference is the neck construction: set neck on the Epic, neck through on the Persuader. You should be able to hear this without even plugging the instruments in. The construction affects the vibration of the string, so you will hear this acoustically.  
 
You might want to measure from the nut to the 12th fret and double it to confirm the scale length. Most Persuaders were 32 medium scale, and this can also influence the sound compared to the 34 scale Epic.  
 
As a neck through bass, the Persuader would be a more expensive instrument than today's Epic. If you ordered a new Persuader (still available for special order), it would be nearly identical to the one you have presently.  
 
If you want to try an experiment, unplug the filter module from your Persuader and swap it with the bass and treble module in the Epic (it's easy - they are all on modular connectors). You'll have an open hole on the Epic, but you can see how the filter differs from the bass/treble controls. Likewise on the Persuader, you'll have to leave the cover off to access the extra control, but for the purpose of comparing, and learning how the instruments differ from eachother, I think it would be a useful excercise. Then just plug them back the way they were.
 
Also, another thought to keep in mind is that a particular instrument may sound particularly good for no particular reason. I mean thay they always turn out excellent, but sometimes they turn out extra-good, and we can't explain why, and usually just guess it's the certain wood or wood combination that is influencing it so much.  
 
In any event, it sounds like you're really happy with the Persuader, so I hope you continue to enjoy it for years to come.

[pmoran]

now that is exactly the kind of thread i had hoped for. took me awhile to figure out what i was reading  and trying to interpolate it into what i was hearing when i played. these last few messages have been the answer to what i was trying, and not very adroitly, to ask. incredible technical info from the pro's from dover. thanks. i'm not sure i'm brave enough to start disconnecting body parts,like dr. frankenstein, and transplanting them into other bodies but it's worth a try. to be honest, at 51, i need to get my bifocals redone before i attempt this. it's comforting to know that i'm not crazy when i can hear differences and can't explain them. it's even more comforting, as i had physically discovered, to know that the feel i get----the intonation i'm able to accomplish w/a tiny push of a fingertip---from my persuader is real and not imagined. so, that said, i'm on a quest on ebay for older model basses. i buy new ones, not alembics but others, and i find myself going back to the ones i've owned for many years. initially, when i play a new one, there's a rush. but as i explore them, w/their bartolini electronics upgrades and all, i still go back to the old guys. sitting in the corner. graying like me. they just have a sound, and unlike my kids and younger lawyers i practice with, i still want to hear them speak. and i want to hear older alembics sing.

[pmoran]

sorry, forgot something for effclef. yes, i did move the epic pickups closer to the strings by adjusting the spring and set screws. i also adjusted the bridge to offset the pickup adjustment so there would be not contact between the pickups and strings. i used the measurements, and i used a ruler, to make sure the tolerances were as dave suggested in a thread link he provided to me. the persuader still blows the epic away. so, i'm going to the higher end basses; i'm not buying other brands anymore; i guess, after owning 9 other basses, that i'm going to begin pairing my collection down to my gibson rd artist----and i can't get rid of her because i bought her new directly from the store in 1978 and she's beautiful and still kills-----my ricks which are death when playing U2 and MrNorth and whatever older alembics i can afford. i figure 3 alembics, minus my epic which i will now sell, equals 20 other basses. right?

[effclef]

Well, Patrick - after you get new glasses, you might want to try the swap. They just plug and unplug - it's not like you have to unsolder things.
 
Neck through, and a sustain block under the bridge, and ebony neck laminates all make a difference...should you go for the ultimate.
 
Are you using the same strings (top four anyway) between the two? As Mica said, the scale length on the Persuader is probably 32. Nut to 12th fret times two.
 
I bet it all boils down to the response of the double-P pickup. I'd love to hear a Persuader with two of them!
 
EffClef

[pmoran]

oh, effclef, i forgot something. yes, my persuader has a bass sustain block under the bridge. i think, after all i've read, that the neck thru design and the pickups are the answer to what i've been trying to understand. i'm disappointed i bought my epic 5. i just never could get the sound out of it that i get from my thunderbird or my rd artist, and i know alot of people think gibson basses are crap, but i love my two.  that thunderbird is absolutely a killer when playing zztop, for instance.  here in texas it's not unusual to know people who have some of the reverend billy g's guitars. i have a friend who bought one of his 50's era melody makers used on the fandango album. i know dusty uses different basses, none of which i would care to own. i've read up on them, but i'm not impressed by what i read. but that thunderbird can hit the sound of his bass on the tres hombres album dead on. the epic just never gave me the sound i wanted. the persuader can be adjusted, w/just 2 controls, to fit the exact sound of everyone from t-rex bang a gong to the stones' gimme shelter.  i use a line 6 bass pod pro x w/my trace elliot heads. it just gives a great beginning sound before i begin tweaking w/the rackmount bass pod pro x. and let me tell you, very little tweaking has to be done. the persuader produces a wonderful sound.

[effclef]

Well the bottom line is, keep what you like and don't worry about parting with what you don't!
 
People love the Epics - you could sell yours here on the Board and fund the neck-through you really want.
 
This is the main reason Mica always suggests trying out an Alembic in person before buying one sight-unseen. It tells you so much about how it will feel and sound in your hands.
 
On a side-note, I am really not a fan of the (Precision style) Vector body. I do like the Elan (Jazz style) body more. But that's why they make chocolate and vanilla, eh?
 
EffClef