Author Topic: 5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3  (Read 564 times)

smuprof

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« on: April 28, 2012, 09:45:08 AM »
So after a life-long love affair and 3 Alembics, I've pulled the trigger on my first custom: 5 string SII.  My MK5 has a 3+2 tuner configuration, with the B-E-A strings on the 3 side.  
 
I like that look, but I've seen some the other way, with B-E on the 2 side, and A-D-G on the other.  It occurs to me that this configuration (2+3), adds about an inch to the length of the B string which should increase the tension slightly and possibly improve (slightly) the performance of the B string.
 
Would love to hear the thoughts of anyone with this configuration on a 5 string, or comments from the board in general on your preferred arrangement and why.

cozmik_cowboy

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 10:31:25 AM »
The length is added outside the speaking part of the string; as it does not change the scale, it will not change the tension required for  a given pitch.
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

JimmyJ

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 10:35:59 AM »
Hey John,
 
Congrats on the coming Series II, you're gonna love it!
 
The reason my 5s are all 2+3 was originally because back in the day the only low-B string I could find (actually just a giant E) was a little long and I needed the extra distance between the nut and the tuner to allow for the windings to taper down.  Because that large string just does not want to bend around a small Schaller or Gotoh post.
 
There are many more string choices these days so I don't know if that's an issue anymore.  And I hadn't thought about the tension thing, that's interesting...
 
Jimmy J

mica

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 12:18:52 PM »
We're finding that the 2+3 arrangement still fits more strings even today.

growlypants

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 04:53:00 PM »
I have the 2 + 3, also.  (It's my first 5 string, though.)  Consequently, when I went to tune the A string, I was actually tuning the E by mistake!!  It takes a little getting used to!
I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

David Houck

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 06:20:26 PM »
Really large B strings can sometimes have a hard time making the bend from the nut to the tuning peg if the peg is too close to the nut.  So having the extra room in a 2+3 can help alleviate that issue; it's a bit of a straighter pull.
 
Oh; and congrats on the SII!!
 
(Message edited by davehouck on April 28, 2012)

JimmyJ

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 08:20:20 PM »
I've never understood what effect the length of string beyond the nut and bridge, and the angle of the string as it passes over those two points, has on string tension.  One would think that all 34 scale E-strings would feel the same on any instrument but that seems not to be the case.  So something is going on there.  Peter, Mica, Dave, or anybody, what can you tell me about that?  I need a physics lesson!
 
Jimmy J

bigredbass

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 09:51:54 PM »
This is one of those arcane subjects . . . My understanding and observation would be this:
 
The speaking length of the string is between the nut and the bridge.  Aside from two favorite tricks of some (picking the length between the nut and the key for that ring-ding effect, or pushing down on that same length as some sort of vibrato), the length between the nut and the key, and in the case of two piece bridge/tailpiece axes like Alembics or Warwicks, is not involved in playing.  Having said that, the bigger a breakover angle (where the strings angle down and away from the plane of the fingerboard at one or both (headstock and the angle between the bridge and the tailpiece)ends supposedly imparts more 'downforce' onto the nut and bridge saddles, ostensibly for more sustain via higher loading of those parts.  
 
In my experience, I've never noticed less tone/sustain on a Fender-style neck (head parallel to the strings, shallow down angle) on the E-string, and it's key is very close to the nut and typically doesn't pass through a string tree like the other strings.  I've never heard any difference in a 'stings through the back' bass either.
 
This sometimes (or even usually) is brought up vis-a-vis sustain.  I'd say, again from my experience, on a loud stage, EVERYTHING sustains just because it's so loud.  Going direct, through phones with no amp, you find that there are basses that record well and basses that are better left for live work . . . but it usually has not much to do with sustain.
 
The one physics lesson I would like to see:  Tuning is tension.  You pull a string up to a given lbs/ft, and you're tuned to the right open note.  I'd be interested to see if the down angle promotes this as a mechanical advantage/multiplier, which would account for the difference in 'tension' we seem to feel from one type of bass to another.  Throw in scale length, types of core wires/windings in strings, etc., there's a lot going on here !
 
J o e y

cozmik_cowboy

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 07:35:43 AM »
Think of it this way, Jimmy; to reach a certain pitch, you tune a certain string over a certain scale to a certain tension - but all of this is over the speaking length of the string only.  If you make the distance from the nut to the tuner -or the bridge to the tailpiece -  longer or shorter, it has no effect on the speaking length; to get that string at that scale to that pitch, you still need to tune to that tension.  
So, to directly answer your question, the length of the string beyond nut & bridge has no effect on string tension.  
I don't know about headstock angle; maybe if we could talk to someone from a company that used to increase the headstock angle when reworking  Gibsons & Guilds..........
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

JimmyJ

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 07:52:33 AM »
Alright now!  This is good stuff.
 
My uncle Google pointed me to an interesting article here:
http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm
Of course the string's tension has to be the same for a certain string (weight per length) at a certain vibrating length (34 for a long scale bass) and tuned to a certain note.  The tension can't actually vary without changing the pitch. (Oh duh, I should have known that!)
 
But as this article points out, the compliance of the string could be effected by the extra lengths beyond nut and bridge.  As in, if you try to bend the string - IF the string can move freely over the nut and saddle - you would be pulling more string...  
 
Let's say we have a string that is locked at the nut and saddle and you fret a note and then push the string up 1/2 causing the pitch to bend up a certain amount.  Now take that same string, anchor it at the bridge and run an extra 100 feet of it between a roller nut and a tuner.  With the vibrating part tuned to the same pitch your 1/2 deflection probably wouldn't change the pitch very much.  Does that sound right?
 
I'm guessing the guitar players all know this stuff automatically.  I don't do much bending but I do pull on the string and release it to sound the note.  That pull probably doesn't move the string across the nut and saddle though so I am probably NOT perceiving compliance either.  More likely, with my limited experience of playing anything other than my own basses, any weirdness I noticed was due to string weights.
 
Thanks all,
Jimmy J

lbpesq

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 08:21:19 AM »
I seem to remember reading somewhere long ago that Jimi Hendrix preferred right-handed Strats strung backwards to left-handed Strats because the longer length for the lower strings from nut to tuner made it easier to bend the lower strings.
 
Bill, tgo

cozmik_cowboy

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 09:19:37 AM »
The 1/2 bend would change the pitch the same amount in either case; you're still affecting the speaking length - but maybe the extra length past that portion would make the bend easier, as there is more string to pull - a la Bill's Jimi thing.
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

JimmyJ

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 11:42:35 AM »
So, by bending the string 1/2 you are actually changing the tension which is what makes the pitch change, right?  But Peter, with my theoretical roller nut plus 100 feet of extra string beyond it, it seems a 1/2 deflection anywhere in that 103 feet would have a much smaller effect on the overall tension of that long string and thus less pitch change.  In my mind it would hardly change the pitch at all...
 
Bill, are you sure Hendrix was talking about the bottom strings?  If my thinking is right (highly doubtful) it would seem that maybe the shorter distance of the high-E string to the tuner on an upside-down strat would have made the upper string more pitch bendable...??
 
Clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about and I might have this completely backwards, but I am enjoying this.  
 
Jimmy J

terryc

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 11:59:55 AM »
Maybe one should delve into Hooke's Law, Young's Modulus, yield strength of materials, shear modulus and impulse excitation technique(sounds like a sexual act LOL!)

smuprof

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5 String Headstock Configuration: 3+2 or 2+3
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 02:15:14 PM »
At the risk of going even farther afield from any area of expertise I possess, it seems the frequency of an open note would be determined by the scale, the mass of the string (gauge), and the tension.  A lighter gauge string on the same scale would require lower (less) tension to achieve the lower frequency (hence tune down to get drop D tuning - less tension).
 
Of course we're looking for the opposite in a low B string - i.e. not floppy (less tension).  Does it follow then that a heavier gauge string would require more tension, resulting in a tighter B string?
 
PS - thanks for all the input. I'm like Jimmy - interesting discussion (particularly the Hendrix note) - although I don't tend to do a lot of bends on the B string