"Flim" & JT

[jakebass]

Hi Jimmy, it's fascinating to hear your thoughts on this stuff so thanks.  
The term possibles is something I picked up from a Ray Brown interview where he told of he and his band mates in the Oscar Peterson trio doing rehearsals in the afternoon for the gigs, and whilst not exactly defining what the arrangements were in the improvised sections, they would work on many alternatives of working through the changes using this that or the other twist or turn on the harmony, so when it came to the gigs they would instinctively know what each other were doing, hence playing the 'possibles'  
I understand that you are nailing it on the JT gig (as we have discussed before) and I have a ton of respect for that discipline, in my later years I have been on a quest to play as simply and effectively as possible so I'm always looking for the thing that just fits right. I work with a really lovely singer songwriter  http://www.myspace.com/yamitmamomusic who is beginning to see some success writing for others and I hope to play on and produce an album for her in the new year. So in that I get to decide what the bass notes are so I do my best.
I also play functions and jazz gigs (mostly on double bass) so I'm quite used to improvising a bass part from a chord chart. The reason I'm interested in your thinking on the discipline thing is that I find if your working day involves lots of blowing it can be a bit more of a mental challenge to really pin down parts when required, and not wishing to keep ladling on praise and potentially embarrassing you, your work with JT has been an inspiration for me in exactly that. So being able to have a virtual discussion with you about it makes me feel like a kid in a sweet shop, even though I'm 42 and have already had too many sweets ;0).
When you speak of Holdswoth gigs being a note fest, you are no slouch when it comes covering the instrument, do you prepare specifically for that? or do you maintain that kind of facility all the time?
As has been said, your input here is really appreciated so if at any time I'm asking to many questions just tell me it's time to shut up.
Finally happy New Year to you and anyone here who is reading this. It's a great place to hang out.
Jake

[jakebass]

Just had to add the thing about changing instruments....
well when you're playing an alembic, what would you change to.....?
;0)
 
(Message edited by jakebass on January 02, 2010)

[JimmyJ]

Hey Jake,
 
I have no problem with the questions, working on the answers is a good exercise.  Just my opinions so take them with plenty of salt.
 
I'm going to guess that the possibles Ray Brown was describing are substitutions to the standard chords of a tune that he and Oscar would come up with.  Alternative harmonic paths to get from one point to another.  There are players who specialize in this type of interpretation and can create arrangements of standard tunes that you would only recognize from the melody...  When this is done in the head of the tune it becomes an arrangement.  Usually during the solos it would be up to the soloist to lead the way down an alternative path - or maybe the bass player might play pedals for a moment, or whatever.  In this case it sounds like Ray and Oscar would work out a few alternative routes so that during a solo if Oscar took a sudden left turn Ray would recognize it and join him in a flash.  Cool!
 
That situation doesn't really apply to either of my two main gigs.  JT's music is fixed and any variation of the chord progression would have been worked out in advance and made a permanent part of the arrangement.  Then it's performed the same way each night with the goal being consistency as opposed to variation.  
 
It may come as a surprise to learn that Holdsworth's music is also fixed.  Obviously our interpretation is quite free but it is for the most part traditional head-solo-head jazz forms and the harmonies are set.  Any options are part of the composition, as in an alternate chord on the repeat or the solo sections - usually related to the head, but sometimes a completely different set of chords.  Despite my reference to playing every note I know ... my intention is always to stay inside the written harmonies and not to send it down any alternate path.
 
Make any sense?
 
The thing about switching back and forth from open blowing trio music to a more constrained style is just being able to switch your mindset.  The goal is always to support the music in the most musical way and if that means just playing low-F whole notes every 4th bar, well, you should put everything you have into making that happen.
 
Good luck with the Yamit project, that sounds interesting!
 
Jimmy J

[bigredbass]

I went to NAMM in Anaheim in the early 80's, and in a back corner of the hall, it was quiet enough where I could hear somone wearing out an upright;  I followed my ears to find Ray Brown, alone in the Polytone Amp booth, playing just fabulous stuff.  I later ran across a Ray Brown method book, which I bought both for the nice exercises, but mostly for the fact that in EVERY picture in the book he was impeccably dressed in a tux!
 
Jimmy, I find that slow/simple stuff is WAY harder than tooting along on fast stuff with lots of notes as there's nowhere to hide with these big half or quarter notes just hanging out there, much less your tone.  You too?
 
The 're-harmonizing' is the great bassplayer's equalizer:  If I suddenly throw in a 3 instead of a 1, or a 5 under 1, much less something really changing things, it's nice to remind everyone else that the root of chords is a powerful steering current, that I own at that moment !
 
J o e y

[jakebass]

Hi Jimmy, it make total sense. I think, for me anyway, that the conversation has now arrived at ideas. I can hear that Allans music has the forms that we all are familiar with albeit with a large range of harmonic possibility due to his fabulous sequence writing and incredible ear for voicings. It stuns me that the trio sounds so full. What I really dig in listening to that stuff is, in the first place the ideas you guys have in your interpretations, but also the execution. It seems to me that all of you are able to produce very highly evolved ideas (seemingly endlessly) with great accuracy and in a very fully formed way. I have been playing professionally for 20 years and have been on a constant quest to  play the right thing at the right time whether that be set or improvised. I have discovered having been to college and learning about all the details of music that the way I initially learned (listening to great players and copying them)  was really valid and I have returned to that method of absorption. I am still on the quest for ideas so I try to make sure I do a little every day to let my musical brain just play with and formulate ideas and make them part of my vocabulary.
What I really love about music is that that challenge feels to me like it will always be there, like an old friend.
And I have to add that playing an Alembic bass has played a big part in being able to play with my voice. It's the only bass I've ever played that feels utterly right in every situation.
 
Joey,
Nailing the slow stuff is one of my favourite challenges too. I practice tons of stuff with just half notes, and love  a good solid two feel, something I think Ray Brown was really great at. His swing was so strong and effortless in whatever division.
And surely one of the greatest exponents of accurate big notes is Anthony Jackson. I love his stuff with Becker and Fagen.  
 
Cheers guys
 
Jake

[bigredbass]

Jake, I sometimes feel VERY alone inasmuch as the whole 'Bass Player Olympics' thing does NOT interest me.  As much as I respect Stanley, Jaco, Victor, etc., to me these are guys that are not playing bass that speaks to me, they just suck all the air out of whatever ensemble they're in, regardless of how breathtaking it may be, or the other-worldly technique they manifest.
 
You play to the tune, and for most of us, the vocals as well.  So whether it was Duck Dunn or Osborne or Carol Kaye or Jamerson, it was smart playing that supported and improved the tune.  I hear this with Jimmy and Anthony as well.  THAT's what I'm after, not NAMM Show chops.
 
J o e y

[jakebass]

Hey Joey,
I'm really with you in that sentiment, but feel it's a very personal thing so I have respect for the gymnasts abilities, I just don't function that way.
I'm lucky to have a friend and sometimes band mate in a great guitarist by the name of Mike Walker http://www.mike-walker.co.uk/ Mike is a world class player and has played with George Russell, Dave Holland, Kenny Wheeler and many other greats. Mike has been an inspiration to me. In a dark moment I once mentioned to him that I felt overawed by the direction the bass world was taking with fireworks and gymnastics and felt that a good feel and service to the song was being undervalued. He said to me that my quest to play a whole note as well as it can be played was a brave decision in the face of what was happening in the world of bass. i took a lot of solace from that comment and ironically have increased my facility since feeling that it was less important to be flash. I just keep chops under wrap and serve the music first and foremost. I think our job is safe...

[JimmyJ]

Some great comments here.
 
Joey, nice story about Ray Brown he was definitely one of the greats.  His approach to groove and comping is still a terrific choice to try to emulate.  I also agree that the notes the bass player picks are VERY powerful and when appropriate can be used to steer the ship in a different direction.  We mustn't speak of this mighty power in public lest it fall into the wrong hands!  Ha!
 
The simple stuff IS the hard stuff, you guys have got that right.  Knowing what not to play can be as difficult as being able to play a million notes.  I'm not saying you shouldn't practice and try to get your fingers to do new things but my spin on this is that holding the chops in reserve can make what you DO play more meaningful.  Not unlike what they say about music school - get all the scales and theory in your head and then forget all that and play from the heart...
 
Lead bass vs rhythm bass?  Well, we must respect what the mentioned solo Artists are/were able to do with their instruments (the instruments we thought we knew before we heard them do THAT).  These guys changed the face of bass in the same way Holdsworth changed guitar and how you feel about it is strictly a personal thing.  And what these outstanding soloists can do on a bass doesn't diminish in the least what the great simple groove guys do.  It's just another animal.
 
Jimmy J

[JimmyJ]

sorry, a bit more...
 
Jake, the Holdsworth band is a very unusual musical situation and the freedom and ongoing experimentation that we pursue is not always successful.  The recordings are the best collections of controlled insanity.  When you see the band live you will see us all grimace from time to time.  That's the nature of that gig, everybody going for it, different things every night, some amazing moments and a few inevitable derailments.  Soloing over his progressions regularly trips me up.  But that's Allan's particular unusual version of jazz.  It's really not for everybody.  The audience tends to be mostly musicians trying to figure out what the heck is going on with the music.  We can usually spot the two women who came with their boyfriends, a couple songs into the set they are whispering in the boyfriend's ear and by the end they're nowhere to be seen.  That's a generalization really, it may be heady music but I find some terrific beauty in it.  Allan really is a one-off and it's a riot playing with him, hanging on for dear life!
 
Jimmy J

[artswork99]

What a great thread! Thanks for this great read and insight.

[lbpesq]

Jimmy, your description of going for it reminds me of an old quote I've heard attributed to Bob Weir describing the Dead going for it:
 
When you go diving for pearls, sometimes you come up with clams
 
Bill, tgo

[bigredbass]

The Great Unspoken Truth They Never Told You:
 
It's all down to knowing what NOT to play.
 
My Holdsworth story:
 
That same NAMM Show was the year Allen Holdsworth jammed on one of the demo show stages with Ed VanHalen (!).
 
It was terrifying and puzzling all at the same time.  Both of them definitely had their radar turned on watching each other and listening.
 
This went for about 20 or 25 minutes, I'm sitting 6 or 7 rows back in this meeting room.  There's a dark headed guy sitting directly in front of me, and his head is bobbing around and he's shifting around in his seat like he's watching a tennis match, and he keeps making these little exclamations when they hit something particularly scary.
 
They finally break it off, big applause, and this guy gets up to leave.  
 
Al Dimeola.
 
J o e y

[jacko]

Jake (and possibly Jimmy).. well when you're playing an alembic, what would you change to.....?  
 
In my case it's another Alembic as I swap between fretted and fretless maybe two or three times per set. (My drummer organises things and I try to make sure he doesn't have me switching every other song). As you'd expect, there's definitely a tonal difference between the two instruments. However, I do agree that sometimes these swaps are a bit excessive. I saw Bonnie raitt in Glasgow a couple of years ago and Hutch switched basses nearly every song with no discernable difference apart from when he went fretless.  
 
Graeme

[jakebass]

Jimmy, I like your perspective on what you do, and the humanity you display when you are honest about the narrow audience, and potential train wrecks. That you pursue it suggests that it's very much a matter of love. I've played some contemporary stuff and I felt terrified and very much alive all at once.
I do regularly remind myself that we are so lucky in what we do. If we compare to day to day jobs, it would be like this:
what did you do at work today dear?
well I travelled for 1,4,7,14 hours (delete as appropriate) and then I totally indulged myself and came home again
 
I find your description of playing in the Holdsworth band hilarious, especially the bit about an audience of musicians and a few intrepid girlfriends, because you clearly know where you're at doing that stuff. (self not taken too seriously methinks)
 
Nice thread this :0)
 
Jake

[jakebass]

Hey Jimmy, just had to let you know that the project we spoke of with Yamit is going ahead and we have secured some time at AIR studios in London. Joni Mitchells 'Both Sides Now' album arranged by Vince Mendoza was recorded there so it will be a real treat (I have done a few sessions there already) to have the use of such a wonderful space. Had to share.
Jake