Jimmy "Flim" Johnson

[tubeperson]

Good discussion and civil as well.  My point is that if you read to get the basics, then it would be easier to get the feel (We all have duck notes some intentional some not).  If you have a ballpark framework (transcriptions etc.), then you can embellish or input your own feel.  I am sure you do not play the same solo exactly the same way every time. Certainly when I play, I am not always reading, but if you ant to broaden your opportunities, reading does help with that.
 
One point of contention, how do you know if Yo Yo Ma can or cannot improvise?  I would bet he could.  He certainly plays with feel (especially when not reading the notes) How about Ron Carter, a classically trained bassist who pursued jazz due to the discrimination placed against him in the classical world.  He may be one of the greatest acoustic jazz bass improvisers.  Even James Jamerson had classical training, he just felt his way to Motown and thank G-d for that!

[keith_h]

I no longer consider myself a reader. My skills have atrophied considerably due to playing covers  
by ear for these many years. I've decided it is not worth the work to regain those skills as, for me anyway, it cuts into the joy of playing.  
 
That being said I do still find a chart or transcription useful when I have trouble hearing an important hook of a song. There are certain  
tunes that need to have the hook played correctly or you lose the feel.  
 
Keith

[tubeperson]

I believe that both skills are helpful, but some can only use one.  The more skills the more merriment.  I just do not buy the argument that reading robs one of feel. You either have feel  or you must try to learn it somehow.  As Jeff Berlin might say ..... Feel this!!!!

[jzstephan]

An artist only needs to do what he or she feels advances their art. However, being a professional musician requires that you are prepared to work. How many gigs do you cut yourself out of if you don't read? Steve Vai got his gig with Zappa by sending him a transcription of The Black Page. He also backed that up by being able to play like a Mother as well.

[JimmyJ]

Yes Steve and all, I am certainly not saying that reading makes you any LESS of a player.  On the contrary, anything you do on the instrument is good for whatever else you might want to do on the instrument.  The above joke is meant as a joke.  
 
Reading is a very handy skill which opens up many opportunities to expand your musical world - and WORK as a musician.  I highly recommend learning how to read.  I'm simply pointing out that there are many many great and inspiring musicians who don't have that skill and we should not judge them as any less accomplished or influential.  So I don't consider reading mandatory to making music ... but I highly recommend it as a useful skill.  
 
I've worked with Yoyo Ma a couple of times with JT and my experience was that he is a charts guy.  But what he can do with the dots on the page is simply ridiculous...  If by feel we're talking about emotional content then this guy is overflowing with it.  And this happens as he reads the written music so right there we have those two aspects working in harmony.  Shall we dismiss him because if can't swing or blow over rhythm changes?  I THINK NOT!  Haha!
 
If by feel you're talking about groove then that's a different animal.  Those of us who have passed through classical training know that groove is not necessarily a part of that world.  We're taught that the dynamics and pulse of the tempo should constantly be shifting - going somewhere or coming from somewhere - stretchy!  So Carter and Jamerson didn't learn everything from their classical training, that's for dang sure.  I understand that Jamerson and others in that rhythm section were jazzers too.  It's so amazing how that all came together as it did!
 
Best to all,
Jimmy J

[keith_h]

John,
I haven't really lost any gigs due to not reading. I do not do this professionally and mainly play your typical bar and downtown festival stuff (Classic Rock, Beach Music, Blues, etc). Most of these require a set of standards that everybody plays and for those songs I don't know I learn from a recording. I also do some occasional session work for a friend that records regional gospel and country groups. These are quite often standards or the folks being recorded provide the chords and leave the bass part up to me. I wasn't trying to imply that reading was a useless skill but that it is not the holy grail, so to speak, of making music. That part comes from who your are in my opinion.  
 
I recall an interview some years back where Adrian Belew talks about not being able to read music and getting the guitar gig with Frank Zappa. I also know classical musicians some of which are reader interpreters and others that can also improvise. I think it really boils down to what gives a person the most enjoyment in playing music and what skills does one need to accomplish that.    
 
Keith

[jzstephan]

I understand completely. I think we're all saying the same thing. Different strokes for different folks.  
 
Great examples; Zappa hired Belew and Vai for their unique skill sets.

[bigredbass]

For classical musicians (and I also count myself a huge fan of Yo Yo Ma), their 'improvisation' is really the interpretation of the piece they're playing.  This is good and bad, as since the classical catalog consists of a lot of 'standards' so to speak for various instruments or ensembles or orchestras, one can 'judge' whose version is 'best', as if that's really possible or useful.  And since these pieces are written and no improvisation is used, it can almost get like comparing lap times or quarterback ratings or RBI's:  To me this is an absurd concept when it comes to music, but since these pieces are all written out . . . . .
 
But then again, for all I know, YYM is home right now playing obbligatos over a recording of 'School Days'.
 
J o e y

[gbulfon]

Written music, once upon a time, was the only recording media. Since modern recording is possible, we can share music with no score at all.
 
We will never know how Bach was improvising on his Cembalo, and he did a lot. But we can still play and listen to his music thanks to his scores.
 
Writing down your solos, Jimmy, let me see a different perspective about how your brain and soul organized the notes into a musical concept.
Then I can put aside the chart and play with some new knoweledge and inspiration.
 
No matter what's the way you put down music into written symbols, we need a way to easily get into a piece of music without having to listen to it again everytime we don't remember it.
And to leave the composition viable to anyone in the future.

[cozmik_cowboy]

To tie the movie anthology & YYM to just knowing how to read, your local high school can put on Death Of A Salesman, and the kid in the lead can recite the part of Willie Loman perfectly - not missing a word or comma.  Doesn't mean he's giving the same performance Dustin Hoffman did.  
 
Peter (who will read this after some sleep to see if it makes sense)

[tubeperson]

Joey, we should all be Yo Yo ing over an obligato.  Groove and feel are two distinct traits.  I think of Rocco Prestia (funkier than most slappers, and he does not go slap happy) that reading is not enough, and I would argue in that case listening and trying to emulate works better.  I've spent most of my bass playing life trying to really borrow and emulate his groove.  I have also seen him in concert and watched videos (a must do for all bassist who want to funkify).  
 
Perhaps we all see the pros and cons of both.  I just wanted to make clear that reading does not rob one of feel, and that as a musician, you may not have to read to get gigs, just you can get more gigs if you read (and desire to get those gigs that require reading).
 
Jimmy, a special thanks to you, as a working bassist of the highest order, for participating in this discussion (I thought you would say it was unfair of me to bring up Ron Carter et. al.  but it seemed fair to me). By the way, does (or did) your father read music?  Just a thought.  Please keep us in your loop, I cannot tell you how much we appreciate it.  And as much as I look for the Arrowhead album, I also hunt down the first Flim and the BB's direct to disk album as well.  I have all of the other releases on C (what's a CD?  Vinyl rules!!!!!
 
Cosmic Cowboy, think about how many performances one would have to listen to just to get the part down, then more time putting one's own spin (or the director's really) in order to play a part learned without a script. I am not referring to the closet actors that we all portray for our favorite movie roles.  The real deal is much more involved, and can you imagine a movie without a script, except for Spinal Tap which was incredible when you think about it  That is the exception not the rule.    
 
Once one learns rules' scales' theory, cliche's, they then forget them to perform.  Quite a concept reality?!  I think that expresses what Jimmy J has offered to us, and I would absolutely agree with that.  Otherwise, robots could make for a band (and unfortunately, unless we continue to innovate, they will).

[hammer]

I'd definitely agree that there are pluses (pros) as well as minuses (cons) to each of the approaches that have been discussed and agree with Steve about how fortunate we are to have someone as respected as you, Jimmy, providing us with your insights.
 
Getting back to my original theses, I personally wasn't suggesting that, reading robs one of feel, but only that, based on what I've been told by several individuals who have quite frequently listened to me play that, reading robs ME of feel as well as the ability to really listen well to my fellow musicians.    
 
I have no idea as to whether this is a result of my learning to read while playing a different  instrument; hanging up my bass for many years before rediscovering the joy of playing with others, or the way my neurological circuits developed (I'm a research-based child psychologist with a social learning theory bent and we tend to be linear thinkers for the most part).  
 
Regardless of the reasons, it does have an impact on how I learn and play new pieces. While YYM may be able to sight-read a piece and play it with feeling, I simply don't have those capacities.  The feeling, at least for me, comes to the fore after I've played a piece a sufficient number of times to put the mechanics of playing on automatic pilot.
 
Now please, don't ask me about whether I can rub my stomach and chew gum at the same time. I haven't tried and at this point would be fearful of what the results would do to my ego.

[tubeperson]

Hammer, I have several psychiatrists as clients (I am an employee benefits consultant), so I feel at home with how you think.  Thank G-d for single malt!!  Have someone else rub your tummy.

[cozmik_cowboy]

Today (last night, whatever - I hate night shift when it ain't music!) I remembered an Our Boarding House With Major Hoople comic from the 1920s (no, I didn't see it new); lady is playing piano to impress a rich dude, and says You know, I play by ear.  Remarks the smart-ass kid Why don't you try it that way then?  It sounds somethin' awful when you use your fingers!
 
Peter

[edwin]

Reading and playing with feeling mostly takes practice. When it starts to flow, it's a great feeling. I used to have a minimal amount of that skill during my oboe playing days, but never totally got there with bass, although I enjoyed reading when I did it more often.