Jimmy "Flim" Johnson

[gbulfon]

....btw, I just uploaded my transcription of Jimmy bass solo on Dodgy Boat.....I love that solo!
 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/101210808/Allan-Holdsworth-Dodgy-Boat-Bass-Solo-by-Jimmy-Johnson
 
Anyone can read it online, but to download the pdf, Scribd requires you to create a free account, and then share something in change of a download.

[JimmyJ]

Yes that's the beginning of the Lanyard Loop solo.  Just to help out (or not) my first 3 pitches are E-flat, D-flat and B for two bars each.  Keep in mind that sometimes two chords might be the same scale so he wouldn't indicate a change...
 
I think I've also said this before but in my opinion transcribing and reading music are not the same as playing and creating music.  Transcribing is a good exercise and reading is a handy tool but they are skills which you don't actually need to MAKE music, if you know what I mean.  If you're having fun with it by all means carry on.  The time spent on intense listening and writing won't hurt.  Just remember to put the music stands away and jam occasionally.
 
Cheers,
Jimmy J

[tubeperson]

Interesting distinction you make Jimmy, I think Jeff Berlin might have strong views that diifer from yours, but I cetainly can see your point.  One reason to transcribe is that there may be composers in training among us.  Thus, skills learned in transcribing may be most useful, in particluar in sharing the roadmap with others.  Why limit one's options and skill set?  It reminds me of the great debate, to read music or not? If you have creative tendencies, I think you keep them even if you can transcribe and or read music.  For seesion work this is critical.  Perhaps these skills can even expand creativity, on a different level than just feeling music.  Not that feeling the music is a bad thing of course.  That is why we have Festivus!  Seriously, I buy as much vinyl, in duplicate and more of any recording you appear on.  CD's as well. I want to contact Wayne Johnson to load up so to speak. G-d bless ebay for that!  I still remember your NYC Bottom Line concert many moons ago that I have mentioned in another post a while ago.  The fact that you share so much makes me really want to dig your playing even more!  I wish there ws a Transcription of Sky Pirates for example. a wonderful solo, simiar in mood changes to Alex Lifeson of Rush, La Villa Strangiato I think. And you tone!  Oooh Ahhh, Oh Baby Oh baby!!

[rustyg61]

+1 on Jimmy's tone! It is the referance I use to set my amp!

[JimmyJ]

Steve,
 
Thanks for the kind words regarding my playing history, I appreciate that.  
 
I'm not saying that transcribing and reading are a waste of time.  Anything you do relating to music improves your own playing / writing skills.  Playing another instrument is a good example, very good for your musical brain.  
 
But in our side of the biz (non-classical, with apologies to any classical Alembic players) reading does not necessarily make you a better player.  George Benson, Allan Holdsworth, James Taylor and many other of our favorite musicians consider themselves non-readers and it clearly doesn't their talents.  That said, I encourage everybody to learn to read simply because it opens up more opportunities to play, and work.
 
Transcribing...  Everybody who plays an instrument copies somebody in the beginning.  That's kind of audio transcribing I suppose.  Holdsworth tells a great story about this which I will paraphrase:  When he first started playing guitar he really dug Charlie Christian and took it upon himself to learn one of his recorded solos.  He then got the opportunity to play that solo with a jazz group and did so - two times around the changes.  But then the band wanted him to keep going and he had absolutely nothing.  Ha!  We've all been there!!  It's the realization that learning what that guy played has absolutely nothing to do with where the ideas CAME from.  But this is all part of learning and it's all valid.
 
The next step of transcribing is analyzing.  And while it's all good ear training, and you might actually find some inspiration in the analysis, does it get you any closer to where the ideas CAME from?  I'm not sure about that.  There was a guy here in the forum who did an exhaustive analysis of one of my solos a while back and all I can say is I was NOT thinking about any of those findings when I played the solo.  I play by ear.......
 
So again, never a waste of time, all good skills to have and they make you a more rounded musician.  But art is not necessarily a science and creativity and inspiration are hard things to learn.
 
Just my opinions guys, all views are welcomed.
Jimmy J

[tubeperson]

Jimmy, see how I layed out the ground work for your treatise?   I knew you could give an expanded explanation on behalf of the wide range of members we have here, with a little prodding.  When I was a lad, I played the clarinet and reading was mandatory and everything.  In my teen years, I taught myself quitar and bass, and I very rarely read when I play those instruments, (or I use chord cahrts and chord boxes) although I can still sight read bass lines fairly well.  Go figure.  Ultimately creativity is exactly that, not to be constrained and maybe enhanced with a strong reading and music theory foundation.  Jeff Berlin has a new column in Bass Player with a kinder and gentler approach about a formal proccess for the playing musician. Creativity will rise to the top either way, formal training or pure inspiration.  That is how we get innovation. Each one of us processes data in our own way.  At this point in my life pictures are easier on my brain than books, whether it be music or gazing at the ladies!!!  So I guess I kind of hustled you to speak further, and I am glad I did, but in a good way.  After all I am a profesionoal Schmoozer (and I am told a very good one at that). In the end, your contributions to the forum are immense, and I meant what I have said about your tone and influence on me.  I take full credit for idolizing the ladies, however.  Keep inspiring us!!

[bigredbass]

Only speaking strictly for myself here:
 
Reading/transcribing and all the tools are a great thing to have in your toolbag, but there are lots of situations it will never be used.  
 
I was trained in classical piano for years as a kid and once (a long time ago!) was able to read both clefs like the newspaper.
 
It was only once I transitioned to playing by ear and making crude attempts to improvise and invent that the many things I learned made sense:  I never made the connection, nor could hear truly well, as long as all I had to do was read what was in front of me.
 
And once I began to play by ear on these gigs for all these years did I ever make anything my own, good or bad, as it could only come from inside me.  It was not until then that I felt like I owned my skills, and was doing something uniquely personal, good or bad.
 
Now, I was a 'club' player, never walked into sessions or live dates with any real charts to speak of, so in my case, those skills weren't needed.  Music is a huge world, and every person is in a different situation, so you can never know too much or have too many skills in your toolbox.
 
J o e y

[gbulfon]

So many aspects here....
 
Sure, JJ, jamming and playing by ear and memory is one world we must live. Though it is not always possible, when the music is too complex, long, arranged. There is a pic of you playing Mendoza new album, with extensive charts in front of you. Even Scofield had charts of Mendoza music when playing live with the orchestra at North Sea Jazz.
I think it's normal when the themes and parts are too long to be safely in your memory.
 
Everyone get comfortable in different ways while playing. For example, my reading is so natural to me, that having all the grapes of an Alan Pasqua piece in front of me, instantly give me an idea of the possibilities and phyisical positions I have all around my piano.
 
Transcribing your solo, is not aimed at playing it as is all the time, but expand my possibilities forcing myself to play and understand stuff I wouldn't do by instinct.
Often, playing by ear, our muscolar memories win, and we tend to do what we're used to.
It is when you exercise someone else's music and ideas, that you force your body and brain to move on and expand.
 
I am not analyzing why you did that notes, by transcribing, but what and where.
Not even Keith Jarret is aware of why he does when he starts his solo improvisations....but it's nice to get into what happened later.
 
Be sure I'll come out with some other of your solos, Duncan Terrace will be the next. I love it!
 
BTW, tubeperson, where do I find SKY Pirates? I may transcribe it for you  
 
Gabriele.

[tubeperson]

Gabriele, well-stated support of transcibing.  Yes, it is challenging but very useful.  Most good things in life are. For many, they feel writing music and music theory can or does inhibit their creativity.  How would we have art or books without these counterparts in those fields?  I would think with an embracing approach, it would actually increase creativity.  Better technique enhances actual results in just about any human endeavor. Others may not benefit though and that's fine, but I bet most of those non-believers have not really tried hard enough.
 
I will firmly agree that listening and imitating yields great results, just ask Jaco, if we could,  Pat Metheny, Alan Holdsworth etc.  In fact, look at how Wes Montgomery influenced Pat Metheny's playing or any great sax player has influenced Alan Holdsworth.  That one should be close to JJ's heart.  Every time I hear Alan's playing, I hear Coltrane and Bird etc., but with his own spin on those influences.  But a more structured technique leads one to consistency, and a foundation for further creativity.  One can listen to a lot of influences but make their own distinctive sound.   Wouldn't it be nice (sorry Brian Wilson) to leave that sound in a structured approach for the future stars, who need to listen and study the past and current greats to feed our collective minds and souls?  There is terrific 3 book series of transcribed Paul Chambers solos and walking bass lines.  The series details the types of notes, rhythms, and changes used by him over the chord changes.  How would that stifle creativity, by being able to read and process that data?  In fact, I strongly believe it furthers one's reference and technique, thus increasing creativity and the pathway to get to your sonic destination.  You can always not look when you want that creative boost, if you choose.  
 
Sky Pirates is featured on The Wayne Johnson Trio album Arrowhead.  Recommended disk!  It is for sale on ebay in the LP section, but if it is unopened or mint, I usually grab it.  This particular recording is not on CD as far as I can tell.  Grasshopper, another recording with the same trio , including JJ is on CD.   If you can prepare the transcription, that would be quite amazing.  Check out JJ's solo.  When I was taking some bass lessons a few years ago, my teacher and I attempted it.  We got as far as 20 bars.
 
I must admit, for an insomniac like me, this forum serves a wonderful purpose.
 
Big Red makes great point about the use of one's ear.  Especially for improvising, and group playing this is mandatory, as is having a great sense of time.  But why only use some tools?  Why not expand one's universe (sorry Timothy Leary) and unleash even more understanding of one's craft? Joey, why lose out on session work, or substituting for another player on a gig, where Fake books may be needed to play the set, or wherever reading is necessary? Why shy away from the challenge, the testing of one's skill set, etc?.
 
Ever wonder why most people who read a book, then see a movie based on that book, feel disappointed more than satisfied? And we are not talking about the special effects, here, it is the content I am referring to.  It is the prodding of one's imagination, and using reading and transcribing as some of the tools to do this.  Playing by ear is very useful, but often those who rely solely on that cannot integrate easily with the rest of the band. They are so consumed in themselves, they forget they are in a group.  Remember the old joke about the way too busy bass player jamming with a band, and another member says, one of us needs a bass player?

[bigredbass]

Why?  Because it was too personal for me to be playing somebody else's ideas.  For me, it was the challenge of doing it right here / right now.
And I'd come from years of playing what was on the page, not the other way 'round.  So I 'shyed away from it' as I'd already been there / done that, and I'd had quite enough.  IF you're playing someone else's charts / tabs / sheet music, there's always the implied suggestion to play it the way THEY heard it:  I didn't always agree. . . . by the time I walked away from my classical training, I respected the tradition, but had grown to hate how rigidly it crammed interpretation into a narrow funnel of playing things the way they'd always been played.  I found this strangling, as if you could only view a famous painting only by everyone who ever saw it standing ONLY on the same 'X' painted on the floor in front of it.  
 
But I played almost exclusively dates where it was not required. And again, this is just me talking about my experience, different from amyone else.
 
J o e y

[tubeperson]

First Joey I love ya man.  You are a major contributor here and I am grateful to you for that. I would not have attempted to adjust my Alembics without your posts.  So I am loving the fact I will use that forum post against your why and give you the Because, but first a break from the action.
 
Ok Joey, first, remember Jim Bouton's book about baseball - Ball Four?  The next one he wrote which was a follow up on the same topic was I'm Glad You Didn't Take It Personally.  To steal from Shakespere - Too personal or not too personal!
 
Since you ask why, let me respond: Because! I have thanked you on this very forum a number of times for your most awesome post about setting up the Alembic bass.  And what form of communication did you use?  Written aka transcription, so to speak.  Your own validation of my point.  Certainly I did not limit my digestion of your post as the only data available, it would have been great to speak with you while I was adjusting away, or have a video of the process.  Not that I am invalidating yours, if you read my post carefully, most of my learing on guitar and bass has been through listening and imitation. Let me offer that if you had posted a video instead of your written post, it may have gotten me to the same point, perhaps not.  The written language is more useful, since it is repeatable and consistent as a reference.  I can deviate that as I feel it but it gives a terrific starting point.  Let me give you another example.  As a younger ruffian learning our craft, I aurally transcribed or better yet derived Donna Lee the Charle Parker tune that Jaco made so famous.  Many years passed by.  If I tried to recall the visual memory of the listening as a means to play the part, at that later point, it would have taken longer than if I could (and still can) read the transcriptions available.  I like to think that if you can read the notes, it gives you a better foundation to feel the inflections of the player being imitated.  Reading music does not rob one of feel, despite the excuses we hear against reading music.  You either have it, develop it or don't get it. Now I could just say Feel this but only in person over single malt (just a joke don't fret about it)!  Seriously, I have used your own words to illustrate my point, and then given a further example of how the reading can help recall the lost physical technique of the playing.  Here is one to ponder - I had asked JJ if he had a transcription of his solo on Sky Pirates.  He was kind enough to reply, but it was not available.  I guess my question to him, and all of us to ponder (the situation) is - if he could read a transcription of that solo, or even the arrangement, after not playng it for let's say 10 - 15 or more years, would he recall it quicker by aural memory, or written reading, then enhancing it with Feel This? I think it is a fair question and each of us might differ on that, but in my eperience, if I can read, I can travel more efficiently.  Otherwise why would they make GPS units for us to read if we could feel it? By enabling reading, I can get back to a reference point, then listen for feel and inflection.  Therefore, one may be a feel player, and not use the written form, and be a great player, but you cannot then particiapte in a gig where reading is needed. Gigs are hard enough to get, why limit your possibilities.  Respectfully submitted, your Tubeeness  
 
Joey, still love ya man. And JJ, you are quite the inspiration, no negativity given, just a passing thought as I run out to see my son compete (as opposed to reading about it in the newspaper or see a video.  Live experience does rule.  Reading counts.  Have a single malt, on me.  Sorry for typoes gotta go!!!!

[David Houck]

I'm still trying to increase the percentage of occurrences where my fingers actually land cleanly between the frets.  If I can get that percentage up to some acceptable level, then getting those occurrences in an order that sounds musically interesting will hopefully be a more pleasing listening experience.

[hammer]

I?ve got to get my two cents in here and agree with Gabriele's first statement... So many aspects here...  There is reading, feeling, and what might be most important, listening.
 
Add to that recent information from research cognitive psychology suggesting that while there is some commonality, the neural circuits that we develop over time that allow us to engage in a variety of behaviors, including playing the way that we do, are NOT exactly the same.  Rather, there are subtle differences in them between individuals.  Those subtle neurological differences may make it possible for the best to read, feel, and listen at the same time.  Unfortunately, that?s not me.  I can only engage in one or two of the three with any degree of competence.
 
When playing with my son (a guitarist who at 22 years of age is a lot more capable as a musician than I ever will be) I typically start out playing new pieces via the reading route. The comment I all too often hear from him at the end of a piece is, ?Dad you got the notes and timing right, but everything else is missing.?  In order to force his old man to listen and feel, he?s taken to hiding charts after the first couple of times we?ve been through a piece.   Initially, I thought it was his imagination.  Until of course he recorded some of our sessions and asked me to identify which tunes (that we both knew well) I had played in the presence and absence of music.  I was surprised at the difference because it wasn?t subtle as I might have expected, but quite clear.  Of course, he now feels he is justified at hiding charts after one or two times through a piece, not yet clearly understanding that as one ages, some aspects of cognition, including one?s memory, start to go.

[JimmyJ]

Dave,
That's all any of us are trying to do really, and being able to glance at the fingerboard (away from the music) can be helpful.  Ha!
 
Yes Brian, good story.  The joke used to be: Can you read?  Yeah, but not enough to effect my playing.  It takes a long time to be able to do all those things simultaneously.
 
Just a couple more comments here as you already know my spin on these subjects.  Interesting that our reading / not reading discussion is mostly between readers.  I have certainly used reading A LOT throughout my career and it would have taken a different path if I didn't have that skill.  That said, my two primary jobs over the last few years; James Taylor and Allan Holdsworth are not reading gigs.  Meaning there was no book for either band - for whatever that's worth.  I made my own cheat sheets for both groups but the music is transferred to the players by listening as opposed to reading.
 
My main point is to say that you should never judge any musician by whether or not they can read.  The examples I named above should make that clear.  I'll add Stevie Wonder and George Shearing to further my point.  (Excuse my ignorance, there probably is braille music notation but we can assume these two didn't use charts during live performances.)
 
I'm old school and still think of music is an aural art form (Lady Gaga aside).  The creative results are to be enjoyed by simply listening.  I don't need video of Yoyo Ma to enjoy his playing of almost any piece of music.  
 
And while we're talking Yoyo?   That guy can play anything that is written down on the paper and make it beautiful.  As with many classically trained musicians he does not ad lib.  Don't invite him to your jam session unless you write out the melodies!  And yet, if you ever see him touring either as a guest soloist or with one of his World music groups, chances are he has memorized the music involved.  Why?  Because performing music does not require reading music and it seems his choice is to be able to close his eyes and make beautiful sound.
 
It would be interesting to know if there were ever any famous European classical musicians who didn't read?  On the other hand, I don't think classical Indian music has notation, though I could be wrong.
 
Gabriele,
Vince Mendoza wrote very specific parts for all of us.  As an arranger he heard his music in a specific way and our job was to comply with only a tiny bit of individual input from each musician.  They were also long compositions not easily memorized even for the soloists, thus Scofield with his charts?
 
Steve,
Holdsworth's soloing style definitely has roots in Coltrane and that cross-instrumental influence is rare and makes for some unusual results!   He's a one-off.  I can't really agree with your book / movie analogy though.  Written music might be our script but the audio performance that results is our art meant to inspire people's imagination.  And for pop music the poetry of the lyrics might be the thing and the music just the setting.
 
You asked whether a transcription would help me remember something I had played?  I'd be better off just listening because for one thing, most transcriptions aren't quite right.  I mean you can notate absolutely anything including the player's mistakes (rush these notes, fret rattle here) but if it was a solo of mine then I would have the advantage of knowing what I was TRYING to play and could get to that much quicker by listening than by looking at it.  My initial reaction to a transcription of one of my own solos is absolute shock.  Really?  I did THAT?
 
So yes, you could transcribe a Van Halen or Hendrix solo (could either of them read music?) with every nuance notated and then study it and practice it until you could reproduce it almost exactly.  Good exercise I guess but to what end?  Those two guys probably never played the same solo twice??
 
OK, sorry for the lengthy spiel.  All is swell, best to everybody, keep playing.
Jimmy J

[cozmik_cowboy]

B.B King once answered The Question Yeah, but just enough to confuse me.
 
Peter