Defretting an Epic 5...

[evilgus]

Hi folks,
 
Has anyone out there got a fretless Epic 5 or been bold enough to defret one and can comment on the sound? I've just been lucky enough to buy a '95 mahogany/walnut-top for a good price (off ebay - thanks Sean!) and really need a fretless, so I was wondering whether it's a good idea to defret it or not. Does anyone know what body woods are best for fretless? I know the ebony board should be great for it, mainly concerned about the general tone. If it's best left as a fretted bass, I'll have to look more closely at the Ibanez GWB for my fretless pursuits, shock horror! :p
 
Cheers,
 
EG

[David Houck]

Hi Justin; welcome to the group!

[slapbass]

Hi Justin And Welcome!
 
I am in the process of resurrecting an Epic 5.  Playing the bass unfinished and fret board with the fret slot not filled it sounded good enough to me to just make it a fretless. I like the playability of the 12 radius finger board on a fretless. This bass is destined to have Bolivian Rosewood fret lines installed in the slots. I also added a Bolivian Rosewood veneer to the headstock.  
 
If you want to wait a few weeks for the finish to dry I will record it and send the MP3 to you.
 
Dale.

[mica]

A good repairperson can remove the frets without chipping the fingerboard much and inlay fretlines or fill with either black tinted glue or glue mixed with Ebony dust if you don't want the contrast.  
 
When we do a fretless conversion, it's more of a remanufacture, than a repair. We remove the old board and install a new fretless board. At that time you can chose to have a blank board, inlaid lines or sidelines.
 
Walnut top is a fine choice for fretless. Attack and response is quick, and the tone is not overly bright.

[evilgus]

Thanks for the warm welcome, guys, it's great to finally be here!  
 
Phew, glad to also hear it should make a good fretless, I'll take it along to visit Jeff Mallia in the next few weeks and book it in. Was planning on getting visible fretlines too, maybe a similar colour to the walnut top, quite subtle.
 
I don't suppose anyone has done anything to lighten the headstock/neck of an Epic 5? They seem a tad head/neck heavy, so tend to dive a bit or hang quite level, not what I'm used to. I wonder if down-sizing the bump on the rear of the neck would help a bit, it's quite large! What's the correct term for it? Might also ask about reshaping the neck on the bottom (D/G) side, my Tobias has an asymmetrical neck and I quite like that.  
 
Am I just asking for trouble or going too far?  
 
Cheers,
 
EG

[mica]

I would shy away from too much asymmetrical carving - you might carve down to the truss rods. Next time you change the strings, measure the overall depth of the neck from the top of the fingerboard to the back of the neck with calipers. From that measurement, we'll be able to advise you how conservative your changes should be.  
 
You could lighten the peghead some by changing to something like Hipshot Ultralight tuners. The volute is good and strong, it could probably survive a bit of reduction, but we are in the habit of overbuilding.
 
The length of the upper horn is most responsible for balance. As and experiment, you could try removing the tuners entirely then hanging on the strap to see if the weight reduction makes much difference for your stance. Then you could test drive the concept before you alter your bass.  
 
Also try using a nice wide strap with a suede lining and maybe try wearing slightly higher, this has worked for some other players.

[David Houck]

That's the Volute on the back and it's there for a purpose, to strengthen the headstock.  So you probably don't want to be messing with it.  Also, in my opinion, when you start making non-Alembic changes to an Alembic, you lessen the value.  If you don't mind that, after reshaping the headstock, the resale value of the bass will no longer be what you paid for it, then it's not a problem.
 
Edit: I see that Mica has posted while I was still typing.  Go with what she says; she's the expert!
 
(Message edited by davehouck on July 12, 2005)

[evilgus]

Thanks for the helpful advice, peoples, I might just stick to the basic defretting work and leave things as intended. I have a suspicion it might need replacement pickups or circuitry before that though, it's not sounding very Alembic to me. Have just been playing around with pickup heights and so on, but can't get that trademark Alembic tone to come out...
 
Has anyone played an Epic 4 and 5 through the same rig? Should they sound roughly similar in basic tone?
 
Cheers,
 
EG

[David Houck]

Lots of things go into tone, including strings, woods, etc.  And the neck of a 5 string is more massive than that of a 4 string.  My Essence 6 with Walnut top and Mahogany body sounds completely different from my Essence 4 with Maple top and body.  Unless it's buzzing or one of the pickups isn't producing any sound, there is probably nothing wrong with the pickups or circuitry.  A lot of the guys in this group have reported that just changing the type of strings they are using has made a big difference in tone.  Also, you haven't mentioned what kind of rig you are using; and of course that's going to make a big difference too.  And don't forget that when you defret the bass, the tone is going to change substantially.

[evilgus]

Ok, have just changed back to Nickel strings and will continue to play around with pickup heights and settings to see if I can find the general tone I'm looking for.
 
Current rig is an Eden Metro driving an Acme B-2W as an extension cab. Pretty much running the EQ flat, but my horn is not working so I'm missing a bit of top end. (Only run it 1/2 on when it *is* working anyway.)
 
Dumb question, but would AXY pickups sound much different to the MXYs, or is it mainly the circuit you use with them?
 
Cheers,
 
EG

[mica]

Just regular AXY and MXY are the same internally, so there would be no difference in sound. The AXY shell is bigger, and allows for a larger aperture magnet. This is the FatBoy pickup, and does have a different sound.  
 
How different? This is where words fall short, but I suppose the best I can do is to say the FatBoy sounds fuller and more like a Series I/II since they are wound on the same magnets. Some feel the wide aperture is too boomy sounding, but others love it. Maybe some folks with experience with both will give you their comments and experiences.

[David Houck]

As I recall, some of our members own Eden Metro's and love 'em, and quite a few own Eden heads and cabs.  And several members own Acme's and love those too.  The Acme B-2W is a subwoofer and, according to the Acme website, has a useable top end of 1kHz.  The crossover on the Eden is probably 3.5kHz.  Thus if your horn isn't working, this may be why you aren't getting that Alembic sound (or maybe not; I'm just offering suggestions).  If you haven't already, pull out the L-pad and check the fuse, actually a lightbulb mounted on the back of the L-Pad and crossover circuit board [from Eden discussion board].  So, before you decide that the bass isn't giving you the sound you want, I would suggest either fixing the Eden or trying another cabinet.  Oh and one other suggestion which you are probably already doing; when you're starting out with the EQ flat, don't forget to set the Enhance control to zero.

[evilgus]

No progress on the defretting, but I *am* getting used to EQing the bass to get the best sound for my rig. The tone and dynamic range is just completely different to my other instruments, I had to start from scratch and assume nothing. After installing a new battery, adjusting pickup heights and string heights, it's sounding pretty damn good live and even better in the studio.  
 
Downside is, now I don't know if I can bring myself to get the frets ripped out, it sounds too good! :p
 
Cheers,
 
EG

[David Houck]

My personal opinion is don't take the frets out; buy another Alembic that's already fretless!

[evilgus]

It might be a moot point now, I've fallen in love with an Essence 5-string and wanna upgrade already!!! :p
 
Cheers,
 
EG