Author Topic: The big rig (Read 2314 times)

edwin · « **Reply #30 on:** March 07, 2014, 10:55:46 PM »

What's clear is that one of these days I have to do a road trip out there so we can hang and make some noise!

sonicus · « **Reply #31 on:** March 08, 2014, 01:10:37 AM »

Edwin ,
I think that would be cool. A gathering ___.

keith_h · « **Reply #32 on:** March 08, 2014, 05:51:31 AM »

The only speakers and cabinets I still own from my 70's/80's rig are my single speaker K140's. JBL hit a sweet spot when they developed the K140. I never tried the D130 for bass but used them in the lower mid cabinets of my PA at that time. Not sure they would have held up as well as the K140's in a bass rig.

Keith

hankster · « **Reply #33 on:** March 08, 2014, 02:17:11 PM »

Yep, K140 is a good bet. I used it for years with my Bandmaster. Always sounded good.

willie · « **Reply #34 on:** March 18, 2014, 01:02:31 PM »

Here is my little rig

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #35 on:** March 18, 2014, 09:15:42 PM »

So I'm just a guitar player, but 22 watts is loud enough for a drummer, and anything louder can be mic'd. How the hell do you guys play at 435 watts and not clear a stadium? (disclaimer: this is most likely a dumb question.)

(Message edited by hydrargyrum on March 18, 2014)

jazzyvee · « **Reply #36 on:** March 19, 2014, 12:09:26 AM »

The measure of a man is what he does with power.
Plato

Jazzyvee

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #37 on:** March 19, 2014, 04:13:17 AM »

Excellent reply.

willie · « **Reply #38 on:** March 19, 2014, 06:37:37 AM »

22 Watts is enough. Not the first time I heard that from a guitar player. They think it's all about volume. And I've heard guitar players play through a 50 watt amp with one 12 speaker that made your ears bleed. Not necessarily the best tone though. I have a combo amp that is 450 watts. I don't use it. Doesn't have the tone.
My main rack has 12000 watts. It's not about volume, it's about tone. Something guitar players don't think is important when it comes to how the bass sounds. I happen to disagree with that. This is the best bass rig I ever heard and I've heard a lot of them. It's a shame guitar players complain about it without ever hearing it.

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #39 on:** March 19, 2014, 08:05:14 AM »

Sorry but I hate huge wattage amps, and I think your argument that we don't care about bass tone is insulting and outright wrong.

To get back closer to the topic, how does more wattage improve tone? Don't some of the guys around here get a decent tone from small amps like the Bass Briefcase?

5a_quilt_top · « **Reply #40 on:** March 19, 2014, 08:21:39 AM »

Simplistic view:

Power = headroom.

For bass headroom = tone.

For clean guitar headroom = tone.

For distorted guitar, either A or B:

A. lack of headroom = tone (overdriving a low-watt power amp)

B. headroom = tone (overdriving a preamp powered by high watt power amp).

IMO, where most guitarists miss the point is when they overdrive both their pre and power amps and the result is a glorious bedroom tone that magically vanishes when mixed with a band. They then compensate by increasing their volume until it's game on with everyone else upping the ante until it's a deafening roar.

I'm not picking on anyone - I'm both a bassist and a guitarist so I can empathize with the tonal challenges faced by players of each instrument.

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #41 on:** March 19, 2014, 08:29:51 AM »

I definitely can relate to the bedroom vs. band setting. There are some pedals I won't use by myself, but which can cut through a mix and sound good in the other setting. I've got a silverface non-master volume pro-reverb that's 40 watts and I don't think I've ever had it past three on the volume knob. I can hear the speakers distort before I can hear the power amp begin to stretch out.

(Message edited by hydrargyrum on March 19, 2014)

jzstephan · « **Reply #42 on:** March 19, 2014, 10:42:07 AM »

Electric guitar and bass are two completely different instruments.; why compare their power requirements? Distorted bass can be an interesting effect, but usually not desirable. Distorted guitar is often employed with artistic results. Lots of instruments are capable of being uncomfortably loud; there is a knob on amplifiers that fixes this problem.

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #43 on:** March 19, 2014, 11:38:24 AM »

I guess my distaste for huge 100+ watt amps has tainted my view, and it always surprises me when I see how high the wattage of some bass amps can be. When I first started playing I bought into the bigger amp means better tone myth, and spent a lot of time disappointed that I couldn't the sounds I wanted at reasonable volumes. I don't see how comparing them and becoming aware of the reasons why their power requirements are different is such a bad thing.

keith_h · « **Reply #44 on:** March 19, 2014, 12:35:35 PM »

A lot has to do with what type of music you are playing, the size of the spaces you play in and volume of other band members. A 100W bass amp is not going to keep up with most pop or rock oriented groups even if the guitarist is using a small combo. On the other hand for a jazz trio it can work well.

Some of the amp size just boils down to basic physics and human physiology. Human hearing is generally listed as between 20 Hz and 20K Hz. The practical low end really falls between 40HZ and 65 HZ. Below that cutoff the roll off of the ear is fairly steep. It takes a lot of power to allow these lower frequencies to be heard. If I need 400W to have my lower notes be heard at a balanced level with the remainder of the band a 400W amp or 1000W amp would handle that. The difference is the 400W amp will be running at it's upper limit and most likely distorting. You also run the risk of heat damage. The 1000W amp on the other hand is running well below it's maximums and is unlikely to be distorting or over heating. Also if I need more volume because the drummer starts hitting harder I can utilize the reserve power of the 1000W amp.

Just because an amp is large doesn't mean it can't function well at low levels. I regularly use my rack with a 2X10 cabinet for small gigs. I use a QSC PLX 3002 which is a big amp by most standards. I think the catch to getting better tone at low volumes is the speakers as opposed to the amp. A folded horn is not going to sound good below a certain threshold. The same goes for sub's like the ELF's I use on larger gigs. However my 2X10 gets great tone at these lower levels running full range. I've also had good results with a single full range 15 on quieter gigs. I guess this is why I now have a room dedicated to music as I need a place to keep all of these speakers.

For tube amps typically used by guitarists things are not quite the same. For tubes to reach the point of compression they have to reach certain voltages which correlates to a certain volume. This means a smaller amp will usually reach this point at a lower volume than a larger amp. Guitar also has an advantage of being in a frequency range that the ear is more sensitive to so requires less volume to be heard. All of this is actually good as it helps keep the overall band volume lower. Of course the drummer can screw things up but we have little control over that.

Keith