Author Topic: Set Up Help  (Read 918 times)

David Houck

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Set Up Help
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2006, 09:18:47 AM »
Olie; they are TI Jazz Rounds, 34.

ajdover

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Set Up Help
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2006, 10:02:54 AM »
Well, I've made more adjustments to the Burkha King, and I'm happy to report that the action is better than it was, with less buzz on the G string.  Many thanks to Joey for the sage advice.  What he suggested I do works!
 
What I ended up doing was marking the truss rod nuts with a Sharpie pen to measure the amount of turns of the nut I'd made.  Then I backed the truss rods all the way out on both sides, and tuned the BK up.  Then  I checked the strings for buzz, put on a capo, measured the relief, took off the capo, and kept tightening, retuning, capoing, measuring relief, tightening, etc. till I got most of it out on the G string.  Then I started playing with the action a bit.  I've got the E string down to .060, but the A, D, and G strings are still a bit high for me (.090, .090, and .100 (!) respectively).  I'm going to wait a day to see how the neck settles in and try to make more action adjustments later.  I've got quite a bit of relief in the neck (over .016), but the action overall is much better.  I guess that's the price I pay for a heavy right hand and light gauge strings.
 
I'll report back when I've attempted my action adjustments.
 
Thanks again to everyone who's offered wise counsel, tips, suggestions.  It's truly one of the great things about this club - bassists helping bassists.
 
Best regards,
 
Alan
 
(Message edited by ajdover on March 15, 2006)

olieoliver

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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2006, 10:07:21 AM »
Don't forget about our 6 (& 7 string)constituents.

ajdover

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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2006, 10:10:21 AM »
6 and 7 strings?  We don't need no 6 and 7 strings! (with apologies to Mel Brooks of Blazing Saddles fame)
 
Just kidding!
 
I appreciate all the help here from everyone, guitarists included.
 
Best regards,
 
Alan

bigredbass

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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2006, 10:53:53 AM »
You really made my day!
 
One of Dan's best bits was about tuning against loose truss rods to buy more 'purchase' for the nuts, or the other way he does it, just add a washer or two to do the same thing.
 
I'd imagined when I heard you describe the way you play, you WEREN'T gonna wind up with an 'other side of the frets' set-up.  Too much left hand against smaller strings.  But I knew you'd go through this just like I do:  Just about the time you really think '...if I'd have only left well enough alone..', then the litlle light comes on, and BOOM, you're there.
 
I'm relentless with my own basses about this.  The last Yamaha (and believe me it's the LAST Yamaha) I bought a couple of weeks ago ('Bought a Bass') had just about drove me a little crazy. Like always, the first 90% of dialing it in was easy.  That last 10% got really aggravating.  I finally said THIS is what it needs, did it, put it away for three days.  Took it out, tried it, gave it half a turn, raised the A and D saddles, BOOM! Done.  A lot like rifle qualifying, easy to get on the paper, harder to get consistent bulls.
 
The great thing about used (read older) neck thrus:  The wood/paint/glue is through drying and moving and your setups tend to stay in place with little maintenance.
 
You and the BK and your fellows come home soon, tickled I may have helped out.
 
J o e y

bigredbass

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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2006, 11:14:39 AM »
I should give credit where credit is due.
 
The BEST $ I EVER spent was buying Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player's Repair Guide available many places.  I took my experience and WORE OUT the adjustment section of this book until I 'got it'.  Or as the Major recounted, Dan also markets a lot of this and more on an excellent series of DVD tutorials available through Stewart-MacDonald (www.stewmac.com), the guitar supply outfit no one can live without.
 
Dan explains it all in a way that's very understandable to the average Joe (or Joey!), spoken in a tone like the best mechanic you ever knew back home.  His info and insights combined with ALEMBIC's unique setup features (the adjustable nut, the twin truss rods, the one piece bridge) put me in the perfect situation to learn how to do this myself, a gift that has taught me so much as to be worth MANY times what I paid for the book.  
 
In a practical sense, I look at this way:  My favorite repair shop on Music Row here in Nashville, Classic Axe, gets $75 for a proper bass setup (and it's worth it, seriously well done) if I had it done.  Times four basses, that's $300.  I'll NEVER have to spend a DIME of that $300.
 
And I can't over-emphasize the ALEMBIC part of it.  I COULD have learned this on a Fender or Music Man, but bolting/unbolting the neck, the difficulty of the trussrod at the end of the neck beneath a pickguard, a plastic nut, it may have been frustrating enough to make me just settle for as good a setup as my frustration level would allow.  After turning my ALEMBIC into a log SEVERAL times, then returning it to great while learning this, now I feel like if I were to approach something else, I would be educated up enough to know what to do right off the bat.
 
You can't ask more from an education than that!
 
J o e y

bassdr

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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2006, 06:54:07 AM »
Joey, Dan Erlewine lives here in MI and the last I knew was at Elderly Instruments in Lansing- he is the man! Michael

ajdover

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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2006, 10:58:41 PM »
Well, I'm kind of back to square one, only now it is worse.
 
The G string would not stop buzzing no matter what I did (raising the nut, lowering the nut, minor truss rod adjustments, rasising/lowering the bridge, making sacrifice offerings to the Bass Gods, etc.).  I tried putting on a set of Dean Markley Blue Steels, .45-.60-.80-.100 on them, and indeed the buzz went away on the G string.  I just didn't care for the strings that much - I liked the DRs better.  It should be noted that I made no truss rod, bridge, or nut adjustments when I did this.  These strings seemed to pull on the neck more from what could tell, so I removed them and put on a fresh set of DR Hi Beams, .40-.60-.80-.100.  And then ....
 
Buzz all over the place, particularly on the E string this time.  My relief was at .016 at the 10th fret while capoed at the first fret with the string held down at the 24th (measurement taken on the E string and G String); action was approximately .060 on the E string at the 24th fret, and .090 at the 24th fret on the G string.  Again, this is what it was when I initially got most of the buzz out of the neck, and I did not change it when I put the Dean Markleys on and took them off, before I put on the fresh set of DRs.
 
I've tried doing as before - letting out all the way on the truss rods, making 1/8 turns of both truss rods at the same time to work the relief into the neck, made sure to check there was the little plink noise at the first fret when holding down the string at the third fret and pressing the first, making minor adjustments to the nut as needed, etc.  Nothing seems to work.  it literally buzzes all over the place.
 
Again, I'm not a light touch player, nor am I a heavy player.  I know I'm going to have to make some compromises in set up due to my playing style and string gauge choice, but I'm truly at a loss.  I've watched the Dan Erlewine videos I've got here, and it's not helping (he doesn't talk about neck through instruments, only bolt ons as far as basses go, and they're Fender style instruments.).  I think I have the right tools here to do a basic set up (straight edges, capo, feeler gauges, tuner, etc.), so that shouldn't be the issue.
 
Guys, I'm very frustrated by all of this.  I love this instrument and I can't get her set up the way I want it.  Short of sending it all the way back to the States (I'm in Baghdad, Iraq), I don't know what to do.  I do not want to go to .45-.105 strings as I just don't like them - way too heavy for my tastes.  I'll only do that if I have no choice.
 
Any and all advice is sought and will be greatly appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Alan

bob

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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2006, 12:41:56 AM »
We feel your pain, Alan.
 
It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of things, but feels to me like maybe you're trying a little to hard? I don't know whether this will help, but you said any and all advice, so here goes.
 
First: stop messing about with the nut. If set too low, it really only affects the open string and first few frets; if too high, it will increase your action overall, but not by that much. So just set it high enough to get the plink as you describe, and leave it alone until you get the rest of this sorted out.
 
Next: don't worry about the string gauges. As long as you can get adequate relief in the neck (and .016 measured as you describe should be fine), then you have enough string tension. From what you say, it sounds like with the lighter strings, you can get this relief and still have at least a tiny bit of tension on both truss rods. As long as that's true, then you don't need heavier strings.
 
I'll qualify that slightly... heavier strings will generally be under more tension, and therefore won't move through as much of an arc when plucked, and so they might buzz less if you're right on the edge. However, the difference in going 40-100 to 45-105 should be small enough that you could raise the bridge slightly to compensate, and not feel like the action was excessive.
 
So I would suggest sticking with the strings you like, as long as you can still get enough relief in the neck.
 
The one thing that sounds funny to me is when you say action was approximately .060 on the E string at the 24th fret, and .090 at the 24th fret on the G string.
 
How did you measure this? I think the usual convention is to measure action as distance from string to fret, at the 24th, without the capo at first fret (i.e. just measure the open string, while in usual playing position).
 
Your numbers seem ridiculously low to me, especially for someone with a moderately aggressive touch. Joey's classic post on the subject suggests 1/8 on the G side, 3/16 on the E. If my math is right, that would be 0.125 on the G, and 0.1875 on the E. This is twice as high as you're describing - though reversed from thin to fat!
 
I can personally go a little lower than that, and in fact after recently raising my bridge because I started digging in a little more, I'm still under 3/16 on the fat side (a B, in my case), and the G side is right at 1/8. Granted, I'm fretless and it's a little different, but 1/8 G and 3/16 E is not exactly what most people would call high, let alone unplayable. It's a good starting point.
 
Again, maybe you measured with the capo still on, which would be different, or maybe we just have a typo here. Can you confirm?
 
Perhaps the best advice I can offer is to forget about the holy grail of super-low action. What you want is an instrument set up in such a way that you can have a good time playing it. I just got over this syndrome myself recently... kept trying to get the neck straighter and bridge lower, and I could do that as long as I played with a very light touch and lots of volume. But I wanted a wider range of expression, and more deliberate plucking, and then I would get this very subtle but highly annoying buzz. So I raised the bridge a 1/2 turn or bit more and eased in about 1/8 turn on the truss rods, and as long as the action police don't come over to measure things, I'm happy.
 
Sorry for going on. To summarize, it sounds like you have a fairly good setting for the nut, relief of .016 as you measured it sounds great, you should stick with the strings you like. I suggest you leave these things alone for a bit, just to reduce the number of variables.
 
The only thing that seems odd to me here is your action measurement, though maybe you measured differently than I do. I suggest you try the 1/8 G and 3/16 E, measured with the string open and in playing position, and tell us how that goes.
 
I know I'd rather have the action a little high and be able to play cleanly, as opposed to getting nothing but buzz. It might be better to start that way, get settled in, and then start slowly working your way down again.
 
Good luck.
-Bob
 
(PS: I have no clue what happened when you switched between strings, that sounds really strange.)

dfung60

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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2006, 01:16:42 AM »
Alan -  
 
Sounds to me like you have a pretty classic case of insufficient relief in the neck - the treble side is naturally too flat, so the truss rods aren't going to help you out. Lighter strings have lower tension and that isn't helping either.  Finally, extreme low humidity in the desert is also probably a factor (because the neck is laminated, I don't think you'll know whether it will flatten or bow in dry air).
 
There's a couple of things you want to do.  Simultaneously fret each string at the first and 24th fret, then sight down the neck using the string as a straightedge.  If it's touching along one or many frets then you need more relief.  The gaps between the string and fret tops should gradually increase toward the 10-14the fret area, then decrease as you continue up.  Unless you have a very, very light touch, it's going to buzz if you don't see those gaps.  The problem here is that when you pick your strings with your right hand, you can't possibly cause them to vibrate parallel to the fingerboard.  The perpendicular component of the vibration is what makes the fret buzz.
 
Another simple test it to tune your bass up a half step or more.  That increases the string tension and pulls the neck into relief.  Of course, this will only work until your male lead singer gets back or your keyboard player kills you.
 
The only way that you can fix a too-flat neck problem without fretwork is to increase string tension which either means heavier/higher-tension strings or tuning higher.  This is why the string change caused your bigger buzz - the Blue Steels must be higher tension than your DRs were.  A really high tension set of strings (D'Addario Halfrounds or Fender flats) will probably reduce the problem but you might not like the way they feel.  You can forget about Thomastiks for sure.
 
The real fix to the problem is to get a fret mill job, which will require a visit to the guitar tech.  If you have one or two high frets causing the problem (as identified when you tested by holding the ends of the string down) then it's a fairly trivial matter.  If you have insufficient relief in the neck, then the tech may be able to fix the problem by cutting the relief into the fret tops.  If the problem is really serious, then the fix would be to have a full refret where they can sand the relief into the fretboard.  
 
I guess that you might also test whether a humidifier in your case would make the problem better.  I wouldn't think this would be that useful as you might easily end up with an unplayable bass by the end of a set.
 
I know these are not very pleasant options given your location, so I'd definitely try to see if a higher tension set of strings fixes your problem.
 
Good luck
 
David Fung

ajdover

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Set Up Help
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2006, 03:40:34 AM »
Bob/David,
 
    All great points, and believe me, I'm taking them to heart.
 
Bob:  The measurements of the action I'm making are at the 24th fret, using a Stew-Mac string action gauge.  It measures in a number of ways, but mostly in decimal points of an inch, hence the .060 measurements, etc.  Essentially, I place the edge of the gauge on top of the 24th fret and take the measurement as I'm looking at it as if I were playing.  All such measurements were taken with the capo off.
 
David,
 
I have a Stew-Mac straightedge that I used to measure relief, and also used the method you're describing, though I used a capo at the 1st fret instead of holding it down manually.  I also used Stew-Mac feeler gauges to measure the relief at the 10th fret, with the first fret capoed and the string held down at the 24th fret.  It measured .016 at the 10th fret.
 
I'm going to revisit this again today, and raise the action as Bob suggest and see what happens.  Will advise.  Thanks again for the help.
 
Best regards,
 
Alan

adriaan

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« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2006, 04:03:30 AM »
Alan,
Are you making adjustements and measurements with the instrument in playing position - i.e. not lying flat on its back?

ajdover

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« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2006, 04:36:44 AM »
Adriaan,
 
    All measurements are taken and adjustments made with the instrument in playing position.
 
Alan

dfung60

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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2006, 10:44:07 AM »
Alan -  
 
Thanks for the followup.  I don't normally work out the action numerically - I just tweak the instruments around until they feel right to me, let 'em sit around for a day or two and refine them.  Since you did have numerical reads from your setup, I figured I go check 'em out vs. how I'm set up.
 
Now I will say that I set up very differently than you do - I tend toward heavier strings (.105 or .108 on a 34 or greater scale).  I will set up with medium high string heights and relatively high relief (definitely visible when you site along the string).  I would definitely say my setup is for heavy attack.
 
I don't have a buzz problem, but it's not suprising - I measured around .020 relief at the 10th using the same method you did; quite a lot more relief.  Open string height at the 24th fret was just less than 1/8 on all the strings, about what you had.
 
These were sloppy measurements, as I didn't have round feeler gauges at this size or a capo (yes, fretted with my finger at 1st fret and elbow at the 24th so I could try to manipulate the gauge in!).  This was on a 1990 thru-body Warwick Thumb 4 that I had nearby.  This bass has a laminated wenge neck and is pretty stable so the neck is in the midrange of relief for my basses.  I have a number of Modulus basses which are also right in the .018-.020 range (non-adjustable with no truss rod, but fine for me), same string height.
 
I know I set up somewhat high, but if you're really aiming at relief at .016 or less, then you will probably want to check the progression of the relief and make sure that it's evenly progressing up and back.  
 
At a certain point, it will become an issue of right hand technique to control the planarity of the string vibration if you want to really be buzz free.  On the other side, if your bass is wiling to cooperate and allow you to dial in more relief, then I would argue that you can increase the relief pretty significantly to address buzz without it being all that offensive to your fingers or ears (we're only talking about 1000ths of an inch to your fingers and fractions of a cent in intonation).  If the .016 relief is an artifact of the neck being too straight, then at least this narrows down what you need to work on.
 
Best regards,
 
David Fung

ajdover

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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2006, 02:20:08 AM »
David,
 
    Well, I've gotten most of the buzz out, but it's still a bit high for my tastes.  E string is just under 7/64 at the 24th fret; G string is just at 5/64 at the 24th fret.  Relief is right at .016 at the 10th fret using flat feeler gauges.  I guess I'm just going to have to live with it being higher than I want for the moment and over time see if I can get it lower with minor adjustments.  I guess it's the price to pay for light gauge strings.
 
To Everyone,
 
Thanks for all the help.  I'll report back if I can get the action lower.
 
Alan