Author Topic: Set Up Help (Read 923 times)

ajdover · « **on:** March 13, 2006, 11:39:10 AM »

Most of you know I have the Burkha King here in Baghdad. I've been trying to get her set up just right, but I'm having some problems.

First, let me say that I've read all the stuff in the FAQ and Must Read sections related to this. I've also gone to the trouble of ordering Dan Erlewine DVDs so I could see how he does things. I've tightened truss rods, raised the bridge, raised the nut, etc.

I use DR Hi Beam .40-.100 Stainless Steel Roundwounds. I like my action fairly low (3/32 inches and below on the E string; about an 1/8th inch or lower on the G string). I have a medium to heavy right hand in terms of attack. I modify my attack based on the tune and volume required; I am not one of those light touch guys we always hear a lot about, but I'm not a heavy string metal player either. I play with my fingers, slap, pop, and use a pick (Jim Dunlop Tortex Standard 1.14mm). In short, I'm about in the middle in terms of attack/set up and playing styles.

I've got the E string at slightly above 3/32 with no buzz, as are the A and D strings. However, the G string is giving me fits. I've tried tightening the truss rod on that side, loosening it, lowering and raising the nut, and raising and lower the bridge respectively. Nothing works. I've got buzz out the ying yang for the most part, primarily up to about the 10th fret. What I don't get is the frets on that side of the bass are fine, but yet I have buzz. None of the other strings buzz at all (well, not much, anyway).

Other than changing the attack (which I don't want to do since all the other strings are fine), what can I do to fix this? Suggestions, comments, ideas are all welcome.

I have allen wrenches, screwdrivers, a capo, feeler gauges (down to .016), a tuner, etc. all available, as is a flat edge and slotted flat edge from Stew-Mac to use (the net is a wonderful thing). If there are any other tools I should have, let me know.

I'm not necessarily looking for the John Entwistle I like my strings on the other side of the frets type of set up, but I don't want a James Jamerson ultra-high set up either. With the attack I have, I know that it will never be ultra low, but I think I should be able to get it within reason, say slightly lower than 3/32 on the E string.

Help!

Thanks,

Alan

bsee · « **Reply #1 on:** March 13, 2006, 01:44:05 PM »

Okay....

It sounds like you could use a little more neck relief on the treble side of the neck. A bridge too low would buzz all the way up the neck. A nut too low would buzz open strings and make no difference on fretted notes. Too much relief and you won't buzz anywhere, too little and you buzz on frets 1-12 or so.

You're using a light string, so they will be a bit on the loose side and more likely to buzz. Also, those DRs have a lot of roundwound character, making them more prone to noise to begin with.

First, I would measure everything so you have a base point to return to if your adjustments don't improve things. Then I would try backing off a quarter turn on just the treble side truss rod. While Alembic recommends that you adjust the rods in sync, who knows how it was handled by the previous owners. Don't expect immediate results to the rod adjustment, it may take a bit of time for the delicate adjustment to settle in. Were it I, I might try tuning my G string up a half step or so to add tension and maybe help the adjustment settle in.

Just thinking out loud, I'm no setup professional.

David Houck · « **Reply #2 on:** March 13, 2006, 02:07:25 PM »

Where are you measuring the 3/32s?

I agree with Bob that it sounds like a truss rod adjustment issue. In addition to what Bob said:

- In conjunction with your truss rod adjustment, lowering the nut may help get your measurement where you want it.

- When making a truss rod adjustment to the G side, making an adjustment on the E side at the same time can help.

precarius · « **Reply #3 on:** March 13, 2006, 02:15:34 PM »

Alan
On my Elan- I got it from Good Guys Guitars on your reccomendation and they are great- I had a buzz on the G string also. I actually had the treble side truss rod nut loose and still not enough relief! Then I read the posts about adjusting both truss rods the same amount, even though the E-A-D strings were OK, and that worked. I had to adjust just a little and wait till the next day to see how it came out. That was the hardest part-waiting. Good luck and I'm sure you'll be doing it all over again when you come back to good ole humid North Carolina!
Mike

ajdover · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2006, 02:06:57 AM »

Guys,

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Right now, the treble side truss rod is all the way out (snugged up so it's not loose, but it's all the way out), while the bass side is tightened up a bit more. All action measurements were taken at the 24th fret using a Stew-Mac String Action Gauge. Relief is .016 at the 9th-10th fret, with the first fret capo'd and the string held down at the 24th fret. I've not noticed a twist or anything like that yet; I'm going to give it a day or two to settle in and see what happens. I really don't want to go to a heavier gauge as I like the ability to bend strings. .45-.105 seem like telephone wires to me.

I'll advise in a day or two and seek more advice if needed. Thanks again everyone for the help.

bigredbass · « **Reply #5 on:** March 14, 2006, 10:33:51 PM »

MajorD

A few random thoughts from chasing the action around the mulberry bush . . .

Chart Your Changes: Write down the various heights, reliefs, etc., as you progress through your changes. I've found that when I got on a rash of 'eyeballing it' that I crossed the same adjustments a fews times without really realizing it. This subtle blend of relief, nut and bridge heights can fuse into a blur at times.

After I've painted myself into a corner like that, I'll just go back to a 'starter' set of measurements and start over.

Don't underestimate that the BK may be breathing heavy wood-wise: It's crossed lots of time zones to be with you and your average humidity in theatre is in the single digits, right? And the air conditioned rooms you're in may be lower still.

I take a different view than most as regards the adjusting of the dual truss rods. On my fives, I just don't think it's reasonable for the side with a 130 and 105 to adjust exactly the same as the treble side with a 45 and 65. So, I treat the neck as if it were two separate parts: I work the bass side to my desired relief (10 to 15/1000s), then the same relief on the high side, and however the tightness on the nuts work out, so be it. It would seem to me the only way to do this. I might worry about this on a single piece Fender neck, not on deluxe laminates capped by a full 1/4 of ebony. I can't judge torque at the nuts, but afterwards one doesn't feel appreciably different than the other.

From the description of your playing style, I'd shoot for average nut heights over the nut (10,15,20,25, G-E), 15 relief at your 10th fret, and between 1/16 and 1/8 over the last fret as a beginning start up point. I'm guessing it'll end up a little flatter and your last fret heights can taper down towards the high side.

Probably not, but one string only buzzing always makes me suspicious of that string itself. And the adjustable nut gives you a test bed for one side or the other quite nicely.

Hope this thinking out loud helps.

Take good care of you and your fellows

J o e y

bigredbass · « **Reply #6 on:** March 14, 2006, 10:42:39 PM »

One other thing: Fret buzz from the nut to partway up the neck almost always leads back to the nut. These axes were set up for 45s, and while 40 is not much smaller, have you checked the slot depth? These brass nuts rarely get rip-sawed by a steady diet of roundwounds, but you never know. The 'eyeball test' by ear for nut heights: hold a note at the third fret (say, C on the A string), and while you're holding the note with your left hand, reach 'round with your right hand and push the same string down onto the first fret. It should have just enough play in it to move and immediately hear a 'clink' as it touches the fret. If they all do this the same, it reinforces the measurements were correct. If not . . . check the slots.

J o e y

ajdover · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2006, 05:18:58 AM »

Joey,

All great advice. I'll write down what I have now and go from there. I'll also try putting on a different string and see what happens as well as adjusting the nut.

I truly can't understand for the life of me why .45-.105 is what most manufacturers design/set up their instruments for. I guess they have to have some kind of baseline, but geez, every time I try to put on lighter strings I have to do cheetah flips to get it to where I want it. I realize I have to make compromises (physics is a very exact science), but I just wish for once I could get an instrument designed for light gauge strings without the hassle. I know on my Series II Spyder I'm going to specify that it be set up with light gauge, .40-.100 DR High Beams with the lowest action possible, using a medium to heavy right hand playing style. Might as well get it how I want it, and I know the good folks in Santa Rosa will do that for me.

Thanks again,

Alan

lbpesq · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2006, 06:58:17 AM »

Alan:

You wrote: but I just wish for once I could get an instrument designed for light gauge strings without the hassle.

You can! It's called a guitar!!!! LOL

Sorry, couldn't resist after being handed the straight line. Hope all is well. Keep enjoying that Alembic and get yourself home safely to enjoy all the others.

Bill, tgo

olieoliver · « **Reply #9 on:** March 15, 2006, 07:18:18 AM »

Hi Alan, your last post posed a good question. I wonder what gauge string most bass players here use. I personally like 45-65-85-105-(125 on 5 strings models). I noticed a trend of some string munfacturers to use 80 on the A string in their med. ga. sets.
I know on guitar I get a better sound with larger gauge strings (I use 10's on my Strat & 12's on my Daion) but I don't think this matters as much on my bass guitars since the mass of pretty much any bass string is so much larger than that of guitar anyway.
I am curious, what gauge does everyone here prefer.

(Message edited by olieoliver on March 15, 2006)

ajdover · « **Reply #10 on:** March 15, 2006, 07:23:37 AM »

Bill,

You realize of course that you're going to hell for that bit.... :-)

Nahh, no guitar for me. I mean, why would I want to play an instrument that has spawned guitar Gods, countless groupies, etc. while I can sit in the back and listen to things like since it's only got four strings is it easier to play? Besides, I like the look on someones face when I take a solo and instead of your average guitar solo, a low sound emits forth, confusing everyone beyond belief.

Thanks for the kind wishes. And you ain't kiddin' - I can't wait to get home and play all of my other instruments,

Best regards,

Alan

adriaan · « **Reply #11 on:** March 15, 2006, 08:19:06 AM »

Olie,

Very true about guitar strings - I can't understand how people can play anything skinnier than 10s.

For bass I prefer the same guages as you, at least in roundwounds. For flats, I use TI Jazz Flats which are lighter overall - you hear a lot of players complaining that they should offer a heavier version of the same, but that would probably change the character too much.

Anything lighter than a .045 or .043 for a G and my pinky finger starts complaining! I can't imagine what a high C would do ...

olieoliver · « **Reply #12 on:** March 15, 2006, 08:35:37 AM »

I even had my daughter start with 10s. She complained a bit at first but now is glad she did.
I have a 6 Stirng WW thumbbass that i use a .032 for the C. It's not really as bad as you would think on the fingers. This may be because I don't play the high C alot.
Wow I just realized that this is my 83th post since I joined 3 weeks ago. I hope ya'll don't think I talk TOO much. It's just that I REALLY like this forum.

David Houck · « **Reply #13 on:** March 15, 2006, 08:49:48 AM »

Olie; I would think that a lot of players would disagree with your statement, I know on guitar I get a better sound with larger gauge strings .. but I don't think this matters as much on my bass. Lots of players that play the thicker gauges do so because they feel the thinner gauges sound thinner and that the thicker gauges give them more low-mid growl. Of course feel is another important issue with string thickness.

And to answer your question, my gauges are .089, .068, .051, .043.

olieoliver · « **Reply #14 on:** March 15, 2006, 09:00:11 AM »

Hi Dave, I see where my post about strings may have been misleading. I agree that the gauge of Bass strings does make a differance in tone, but IMHO this differance is more noticable on a guitar.
That is an interesting config. of strings you use Dave.