Buzzing frets on Europa

[jlpicard]

Question for the setup guru's among us. I have a 98' Europa that I can't seem to get the action as low as the factory setup once was. I have straightened the truss rods just a bit to flatten out he neck but the action is still higher than I like from the tenth fret on up and yet the G string buzzes a bit on the lower frets. I have never adjusted the height of the bridge since day one, so I don't see why it would be neccessary now. I'm thinking about backing off the truss rod on the high side just a bit to see what happens.  Seems like I might be looking at a doing a fret level though because the truss rod adjustment won't solve the high action problem. Any thoughts?  Mike

[David Houck]

Mike; I'm assuming you've reread Joey's setup post.
 
You didn't mention where the nut is at the moment.  The height of the nut is directly related to the action at the 24th fret.  
 
If the buzzing is in the lower frets then yes, loosen the nuts and give some neck relief.
 
It seems to me that often if you just tweak the high side truss rod a little, the low side truss rod will tend to prevent the high side from moving as much.  So you might want to adjust both truss rods.  Maybe back off both nuts an eighth of a turn and give it a day or so to settle in.  If that eliminates the buzz, you can then go back and tighten the low side nut a bit if you wish.  (There is disagreement among members about whether adjusting just one truss rod is a good idea.)
 
So, if your nut is high, lower it until you get buzzing when playing open strings; then raise enough to eliminate that buzz.  (You may be able to get the nut all the way down or close to it.)  Then loosen the truss rod nuts an eighth of a turn and give it a day or so.  Then if you've eliminated the buzzing at the lower frets you can then lower your bridge to get the action on the higher frets where you want it.

[bigredbass]

JLP
 
How old is the bass and are you the original owner? 4 or 5?  Fretted? And how do you play?  HARD, easy, pick, what? As you look it over from nut to bridge, see anything wrong, anything jump out at ya?
 
Remember: nut height+neck relief+bridge height= your action, assuming OK frets or big problems.
 
I think your action has certainly wandered off if you've never adjusted your bridge vis-a-vis the different brands/guages of strings you've tried over time.  And over that time your wood has certainly 'lived' a little, and moved.  This is normal.
 
I'd think we just need a bit of fine tuning, doesn't sound like much to me.  
 
You have to think about it:  Your fingerboard (frets, bridge location, nut) is set up in the 1000ths of an inch range.  It doesn't take a lot to change things.  I'm trying some new Dean Markley Rocco Prestias (NPS Roundcores) and the neck has taken a different 'set' from all these years of GHS Boomers.  I'll give it another day or two to quit kicking over its new diet, than I'll change the setup to 'catch' these new strings, this is certainly to be expected.
 
I'd be very surprised if you need a fret level, and wouldn't consider it until we know a little more about your neck.  Unless this bass has a LOT of hard miles on it and you have 'ruts' in the frets or can see some obviously not seated.
 
Advise me about the above questions and I'll see if I can point you in the right direction.
 
J o e y

[jlpicard]

Thanks for your advice. First, I am the original owner and it is a 98' 4 string fretted. I tend to have a fairly light touch, mostly  fingerstyle with occasional slap if the song dictates. And I continually try different brands of strings looking for that holy grail. The weird thing to me is that there have been no other adjustments to this bass over the years other than the truss rods so why would the bridge need to be touched? Logicaly, wouldn't a tweak on the rods bring it back to where it was? (provided I went back to Alembic strings that is). Unless I'm missing something else that has changed?

[bigredbass]

JLP
 
 . . . because we are looking at a set of measurements (nut height/relief/bridge height) to quantify what you have been feeling.
 
And . . . as you are playing with a light touch, you would not tend to 'induce' as much buzz as some of our more ham-handed friends.
 
Plus . . . adjusting the truss rods IS changing the string heights in a reverse fashion to raising/lowering your bridge.  In other words, you're doing it from the nut end instead of the bridge.
 
Visualise that as you tighten the truss rods, the nut is going to go down relative to the body as the neck flattens out (or down), and the middle of the fingerboard rises.  Loosen it, the reverse happens:  The nut will go up relative to the body as the fingerboard bends up at each end, and the middle of the fingerboard sinks.
But remember this is happening in SLIGHT fractions of an inch.  I have to use rules or feeler guages to record these changes as my eyes can't see these slight changes.
 
Over time, these slight adjustments back and forth + time usually end up where you are now.
Probably NOTHING has changed, it's just cumulative over time, especially if the rods were the only thing you've changed.  Different strings tune up to different lbs/ft in the total pull of the four strings from brand to brand and guage to gauge.
 
In set up I go at it this way:
 
1. TUNE to pitch.
 
2. I check the nut/string heights.
 
3. I check the neck relief.
 
4. I check the string heights over the last fret.
 
Because...
 
TUNING equals tension on the neck.  Must be correct:  Sharp, too much pull.  Flat, too little pull.  We tune constantly doing this is we make any adjustments to keep the pull consisitent.
 
NUT HEIGHTS have to be right:  Too low, buzz on open strings and/or the first couple frets.  Too high, makes the action harder, can throw tuning off as you're bending notes just to fret a note.
 
NECK RELIEF I'm looking to get it dead straight, then let it off just enough so it won't buzz through the amp, even if I get a little buzz here and there unplugged.  Some basses will play fine with a dead straight neck, some won't.
 
HEIGHTS OVER THE LAST FRET  I'm looking to set the height of each string the same so the strings FOLLOW the radius of the fingerboard and bridge saddles.  This set of heights will raise and lower to kill any remaining buzzes they introduce.
 
And these measurements vary from as low and flat as humanly possible if you want it as low as Entwistle, to higher numbers depending on what feels good to YOU:  The only numbers that matter here.  There's no two identical setups as there are no two identical players.
 
The general setup would be
 
NUT HEIGHT  Fret each string at the third fret.  Reach around with your other hand and fret the same string at the first fret while still holding it down at the third.  You should feel a little movement and hear a 'tink' as the string bumps into the first fret.  If it's already touching, raise it slightly.  If you think it's a lot of travel lower it slightly. In real numbers, it's like 20/1000ths under the G and 30 to 35/100ths under the E over the first fret, unfretted, in that neighborhood.
 
NECK RELIEF  Capo the strings down at the first fret.  Fret the  
E then the G about where the neck meets the body.  Around the 10th or 11th fret, you should have enough clearance to slip in a thin to medium pick.  Not enough, back off the rod slightly.  Too much, tighten it slightly. Again in real numbers 10 to 15/1000ths relief for Entwistle, more for most of us.
 
HEIGHT OVER THE LAST FRET should be around an 1/8 of an inch.  In real life, you will probably run the bass side that high or a bit higher and the treble side a bit lower:  The big strings flop around more than the D and G.  In fact, the nut will probably mirror this lower/taller, higher/shorter profile.
 
This is the basic layout.  Their is an interaction of the three that can make you NUTS till you 'get it'.  Or just take it to a qualified tech, and spend your free time on less aggravating endeavors ! !  A lot of times, I wish I had!  But should you teach yourself to do this, then as you search for your perfect string set, you can make the bass feel the same from brand to brand, if that's important to you.
 
And should you decide to dive in, I can not stress enough to make adjustments in TINY amounts: Think watchmaking, not engine rebuilding. And to constantly check your tuning to maintain the correct tension.
 
It's all up to what's right for you.
 
J o e y

[ajdover]

Mike,
 
    First, let me say that Joey's method works.  I have an Essence here in Baghdad that was giving me fits until I used Joey's setup method.  Follow his advice and you will be richly rewarded.
 
    Second, if you're constantly changing strings to find the string, you're going to have to make adjustments at some point.  I know this since when I got the Burkha King, it came with Dean Markleys, .40-.105 or something like that.  I went to lighter gauge Dean Markleys (.40-.100), and had to make adjustments again.  I switched to DR Hi Beams of the same gauge, and again had to make adjustments.  Same went for the Rotosounds I tried.  My experience has been that even if different brands of string have the same gauge, the tension they can induce will be different.  The Markley's and Rotos pulled more than the DRs do.  I'm not sure why this is, but I do know in my case it's true.
 
If you use lighter gauges as I do, I think you may find that that optimal setup is harder to achieve; not impossible, but it will take more work to get the instrument where you want it.  Couple that with right hand (or left hand style if left handed) style, and the use of lighter gauges requires more adjustments.  If you're like me and like to dig in, your action will be higher as a result.  
 
Then there is time.  You need to give the instrument time to adjust to the new settings.  I've found this to be as true for my Alembics as it is for my Fenders, Gibsons, Musicmans, Ricks, etc.  And it doesn't matter much if it is neck through, bolt on, or set neck.  They all need time to get used to whatever adjustments you've made.  It is wood, after all (unless you have a graphite neck), and wood will move.  
 
Anyway, I encourage you to try Joey's method.  Trust me, it works.
 
Best of luck,
 
Alan

[jlpicard]

Thanks everyone. I will definitely give it a go. One more thing, The perception vs. reality of string tension. I like a very high tension string yet no matter what set I use on my Europa, my Series 2 graphite bass (with lower action) always seems to be tighter feeling. One possibility...in order to adapt the string spacing to the exceptionaly narrow neck width of this bass (2 at the 24th fret), the strings do not pass over the bridge to the tailpiece in a straight line. Instead they flair out slightly in order to fit in the slots of the slightly oversized tailpiece.

Then again that really shouldn't matter, should it?

[bigredbass]

The Major (I highly second addressing a JDAM to UBL) is too kind in saying it's 'Joey's Method', wish I was that smart.  
 
I always attribute this to my wearing out a copy of Dan Erlewine's EXCELLENT book, The Guitar Player's Repair Guide, especially the setup chapters.  Dan rightly points out it's actually HARDER to set up a bass (longer scale, bigger strings, more tension, et al) than a guitar, virtually the ONLY tech I've ever heard admit this.  
 
I was led to it as even terrific guitar techs often look confused when you tell them you want your bass to play like a good lead guitar . . . lots of them just go for a basic factory setup that just never suited me.  I've even had them TELL me it WON'T adjust that low, WHY do you want a BASS to be that low, you CAN'T play it like that, they sound better with higher action, and other assorted wimpy and misinformed advice.
 
So I taught myself by Dan's book.  You can too.  If you're at all interested in this sort of thing, it's some of the best $ you'll ever spend, just full of GREAT tips and advice about all things guitar and bass.  Available (along with DVD versions of lots of this stuff) thru Stewart-McDonald (www.stewmac.com) or the usual Mall bookstores.
 
ALEMBICs are the easiest instruments upon which to learn adjustments: No neck joint, adjustable nut, one piece bridge, and rock solid to begin with.  Make a mistake, repeat what you just did backwards and you're right back where you started.  Don't have to take the neck off and on, no separate bridge saddle height adjustments, no nut to file down too far (OOOPS) or fill in and refile for nut height changes, no pickguard to pull to get at the neck rod nut, etc.  I often think people never attempt it as most bolt-neck basses are way too much work to dissasemble the axe just to make simple adjustments. Fender for instance would have been so much better off to standardize the 'bullet' truss rod adjuster at the head end of the neck and keep the 'micro-tilt' mechanism.
 
IF you decide to learn this, it's a great gift to yourself as you can get each of your basses exactly like you want them every time.  No trips downtown, and the labor charges you save buy lots of other things.
 
J o e y

[bigredbass]

AND . . . . the Major is dead-on about
 
1) they most definitely will take a day or usually more to 'take a set' to the different strings you've put on.  This used to aggravate me ('Do it now , hammerhead!!') until I realized it was WAY better that the neck was NOT that flexible!!
 
2) even IDENTICAL guages of roundwounds, for instance, from two different manufacturers will generally NOT have the same lbs/ft tension tuned to pitch.  Strings are at least as black an art as pickup design, so just accept this will happen.  The core wire diameters, diameters of the wrap wires, machine wound, hand wound, alloy contents, it just varies things tremendously.
 
I'm trying these NPS RoundCores (the new Rocco Prestia strings from D Markley) as I want to see if I can find a difference in ROUND core wires vs. HEXAGONAL core wires.  I keep seeing this picture in my mind of wire wrapped around a pipe vs. wire wrapped around a 4x4 fencepost:  Is it easier on the windings not bending over the corners, does the continuous contact against a round surface add stability?  I'm interested because I rarely gig anymore, only play my strings lightly, they're never exposed to real climate changes . . . and they go dead anyway, just the same.  So it's got to be metal fatigue, the windings deforming inside, something.  They don't get the 5 hour a night pounding they once did, yet they last no longer.  Why?
 
Oh well . . .  
 
J o e y

[s_wood]

A couple of add-ons...
 
Here is a great graphics-heavy guide to doing your own setups:
http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/relief.html
 
Another very good how to is here:
http://www.tunemybass.com/bass_setup/
 
One other tip: buy a cheap capo.  It's a lot easier to measure relief if you use the capo to hold the strings down at the first fret!  
 
How your truss rod is adjusted will have a huge impact on your ability to achieve low action without buzzing.    
 
Alan and Joey are dead-on about the differences in string tension between different brands and/or gauges of strings.  For instance, I usually use DR Hi-Beams and they are less tense than many other string types, including Alembic strings.  The change in tension will cause your neck to move slightly. Of course, the heavier the string the higher it will sit in your bridge saddles, so if you've changed string gauges you might have to raise or lower the bridge slightly to compensate.     That's also true if you switch between taper or exposed-core strings and regular strings.      
 
Humidity changes will make the neck move, too.  Trees are designed to absorb moisture, and as Mica says the woodd in your bass neck has more xperience being a tree than being a bass neck, so it will expand and contract slightly with humidity changes.  I live in the NE United States, and this time of year my basses go from the low humidity of buildings heated by dry forced-air heat to the greater humidity of the real world (open windows!)
I always call springtime truss rod time for that reason.    
 
So, get out your tools and set that sucker up!

[s_wood]

A couple of add-ons...
 
Here is a great graphics-heavy guide to doing your own setups:
http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/relief.html
 
Another very good how to is here:
http://www.tunemybass.com/bass_setup/
 
One other tip: buy a cheap capo.  It's a lot easier to measure relief if you use the capo to hold the strings down at the first fret!  
 
How your truss rod is adjusted will have a huge impact on your ability to achieve low action without buzzing.    
 
Alan and Joey are dead-on about the differences in string tension between different brands and/or gauges of strings.  For instance, I usually use DR Hi-Beams and they are less tense than many other string types, including Alembic strings.  The change in tension will cause your neck to move slightly. Of course, the heavier the string the higher it will sit in your bridge saddles, so if you've changed string gauges you might have to raise or lower the bridge slightly to compensate.     That's also true if you switch between taper or exposed-core strings and regular strings.      
 
Humidity changes will make the neck move, too.  Trees are designed to absorb moisture, and as Mica says the wood in your bass neck has more experience being a tree than being a bass neck, so it will expand and contract slightly with humidity changes.  I live in the NE United States, and this time of year my basses go from the low humidity of buildings heated by dry forced-air heat to the greater humidity of the real world (open windows!)
I always call springtime truss rod time for that reason.    
 
So, get out your tools and set that sucker up!

[olieoliver]

I notice on my basses & guitars, the older they get the less the humidity affects them.

[bigredbass]

That's REAL true, Olie.  I believe Dave could find a previous discussion about this (hell, I think Dave can find out if aliens really are at DreamLand), but my 'newest' bass is a '91, and I believe the MIA SFNic pointed out that after a certain period of years, they're finally through drying sap, finish, glue, etc. and they reach an 'equilibrium' that we don't see in brand new instruments.  Though certainly with the variation in wood and construction, some intruments are just more stable from the very start.
 
All four of mine are pretty easygoing as far as maintaining their setup with out a lot of touchups. But I do eliminate a lot of it by setting them up for a certain brand of string and NOT varying from that choice.  IF I were still at that stage of trying a new brand every time, well I'd stay a lot busier at it.
 
J o e y

[David Houck]

Joey; here's Nic's post that I put in the Must Reads.  It's an enjoyable read!

[David Houck]

Well this caught my attention only because it was reviewed by the New York Times.