Author Topic: Set Up Problem on Dragon Wing (Read 755 times)

senmen · « **Reply #45 on:** July 24, 2007, 10:25:01 AM »

BBB,
the action John preffered was indeed very low. I had the chance to play some of his basses and the action is really low. But, as you refer to the book, I think of course that he couldn?t get such a low action on all of his basses, like the early Fenders, the Gibsons, the one offs like the Lightning Bolt, the Flame Bass etc. and also as well as on the Warwicks. All the Warwick Buzzards I have seen or played including the one I owned once were not able to have a low action on due to the high saddles. If he had a low action on his Warwick Buzzards he would have needed to have the saddles lowered, means cut off.
On the other hand if you take a close look at Johns technique and try to do it, you will notice that his technique is best possible with a low action, means really low. The higher the action the harder this gets to play, means especially the sensible touched typewriting as well as his speed triplets. You can do this with a higher action, but it gets really hard to do and you loose much of the crispy like highs of the piano sound.

Oliver (Spyderman)
www.whoareyouband.de

bigbadbill · « **Reply #46 on:** July 25, 2007, 05:32:40 AM »

Thanks Oliver. The pictures I was referring to were indeed mainly the Warwicks. I prefer my action very low (although maybe not as low as John's), and probably for similar reasons to John, although I don't really use the typewriter technique. I do tend to play with a pick in a very guitaristic sort of way though, and find that I just can't get the fluidity or expression using even a medium action. I recently bought a new bass (another Sei bass)from the Bass Gallery in London which has the action set very low, and whilst I was trying it out Pinball Wizard came on the radio. I started playing along and the bass was perfect for John-isms. I love it when all you have to do is lightly touch the bass and it sings out. I really hate having to dig in to get a note out of an instrument.

ajdover · « **Reply #47 on:** August 11, 2007, 11:43:04 AM »

OK, I've had the Ken Smith strings on two plus weeks now. The DW has been sitting flat in its case in my home. I've made no adjustments since my last post (e.g., it remains with both truss rods all the way out and just snugged so they don't rattle, bridge is adjusted the same, nut is the same, it is tuned to standard concert pitch, etc.). What I have at this point is this:

Relief at 10th fret - as best I can tell, it is somewhere between .009 and .008, a slight improvement, but nowhere near where it needs to be as best as I can determine.

Action at 24th Fret on E string; approximately 3/32

Action at 24th fret on G string: approximately 7/64th

The E, A, and D strings buzz like crazy from the 1st to 8th frets or so, with the E string buzzing all the way up to about the 12th fret. The G string, oddly enough doesn't buzz, but I suspect that is because the action is higher on that side of the neck.

Folks, I'm at a loss as to what to do at this point. Basically, as I see it, I have three options:

1- Keep trying different brands of strings to see which ones will hopefully force the neck into relief. This would most likely involve a heavier gauge which as I've stated I don't like or prefer.

2 - Send it back to Alembic or find a local luthier qualified to do a heat bend on it. Not something I really want to do, especially sending it all the way back to Alembic as I don't know when I'd get it back given their other commitments.

3 - Sell it. I won't keep an instrument that doesn't play the way I like it.

If anyone has any last ditch ideas, I'm all ears.

I can't help thinking that perhaps there is a design problem? If it were only my bass I could see it, but mine, Roger's, Oliver's, and Rick K's all have experienced set up problems to more or less the same degree. I know it isn't a construction problem since like all Alembics, it is yet another superlative example of craftsmanship.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, let me know.

Alan

chuck · « **Reply #48 on:** August 11, 2007, 12:24:02 PM »

Alan.
Most strings that I have purchased in the past have the string tension printed on the package.
Also leaving the trusrod nuts snug will prevent the neck from moving in the direction you want it to.
The outside diameter of the string does not determine string tension,the core diameter does.
I know this problem must be giving you fits and you are probably fed up with all the suggestions,my appoliges for offering one more.
So here goes. Select the strings based on the highest tension you can find.Most manufactures list this information on the net.Then select the brand and type that best serves your needs.String up your base and tune to pitch with the trussrod nut left backed off at least one turn and wait 24 hours or so,The loose trussrod should allow the neck to bow foward giving more relief,if this works retune and then snug the nuts up while the neck is still under string tension.
Good luck

ajdover · « **Reply #49 on:** August 11, 2007, 06:57:56 PM »

Chuck,

Got it on the core diameter, and your advice is most sage and appreciated. I'll loosen the truss rod nuts and see what happens, then if it gives me relief re-tighten as you recommend. It's worth a shot. At this point, I'd $iss on a sparkplug if I thought it would help!

Thanks,

Alan

adriaan · « **Reply #50 on:** August 12, 2007, 03:08:18 PM »

Relief at 10th fret - as best I can tell, it is somewhere between .009 and .008 - are you serious? That's the thickness of a thin E string for an electric guitar, in a light to very light gauge!?!

ajdover · « **Reply #51 on:** August 12, 2007, 04:14:57 PM »

Yes, those are the measurements using feeler gauges. This is why I'm so frustrated - nothing I'm doing is giving me relief in the neck to any significant degree.

mica · « **Reply #52 on:** August 14, 2007, 02:48:06 PM »

There's nothing inherently different on the Dragon Wing bass as far as neck or body construction goes.

Alan, I'll email you instructions for sending your DW into us for servicing. You won't be without it for long, and we can surely remedy the situation if given the opportunity.

rogertvr · « **Reply #53 on:** August 19, 2007, 09:47:44 AM »

There's nothing inherently different on the Dragon Wing bass as far as neck or body construction goes.

You're not going to thank me for this, Mica - why are the necks on them so unstable then?

If it wasn't for the fact that mine has got the stunningly gorgeous Chinese dragon (words really do not portray how the inlay looks - you absolutely have to see it for real) inlaid in the fretboard, I could quite happily have chopped the instrument up for fire-wood on several occasions...living with it (or trying to) is a nightmare (use of choice language removed in the interests of this post not being banned by the moderators).

I'm sorry, but this business about the wood realising it's not a tree anymore is a load of old rubbish. My DW is now four years old and it's like a petulant child.

One day, if I lose my temper with it, I am going to have a VERY expensive bonfire! I find it seriously difficult to believe that, given a choice between an almighty expensive Alembic and a Japanese-made Fender Precision, I will play the Precision 90% of the time. At least it bloody well plays and doesn't need setting-up every single time I want to play it!

Reading the posts on this Club about neck instability I have to wonder what's going on. At least it's not just me and my DW that's suffering...

(Message edited by rogertvr on August 19, 2007)

mica · « **Reply #54 on:** August 19, 2007, 11:38:11 AM »

Roger,

I will restate: There's nothing inherently different on the Dragon Wing bass as far as neck or body construction goes. When we glue up a neck blank, it matters not if it's for a DW bass or a Series II, the material selection and manufacturing process are the same.

I think the report of your DW bass neck is different from what Alan is experiencing. Your bass reacts to something and with the very low action the strings collide with the tops of the frets. On Alan's bass, the truss rod adjustment has been exhausted. Servicing Alan's bass will require about a week's work unless our inspection reveals something more seriously wrong.

I have offered to service your bass on more than one occasion. If your frustration level gets to the point where you are tempted to more than figuratively destroy it, please give us the opportunity to repair it or at least find an appropriate adoptive home for the beast.

Note: we have never banned an individual for posting on this forum.

jazzyvee · « **Reply #55 on:** August 19, 2007, 12:00:00 PM »

I have to say most of this discussion thread is way above my head when it comes to truss rod tweaking and stuff like that.

I may be barking up the wrong tree here but I was thinking that maybe if you had the neck x-rayed you may be able to see if there is an internal problem with the truss rods or their anchor points?

Just a thought.
I used to work in non-destructive testing about 20 yrs and used to do radiography as part of my job and we all know how much detail you can get in a good medical x-ray photograph.

The times I have been through the airports with my guitars and watched them as they go through the x-ray machine, even with those you can see an incredible amount of detail.

It may be worth checking x-ray out as there is only so much you can see and interpret from looking at the neck externally.

You can probably find your equivalent of 'Non-Destructive testing engineers in the yellow pages or trade papers and get it done.

Jazzyvee

(Message edited by jazzyvee on August 19, 2007)

chuck · « **Reply #56 on:** August 19, 2007, 12:06:19 PM »

Well put Mica, I like a very low action as well but I also realize that I must contend with the possibility of frequent readjustment of the neck due to temp.and humidity changes.If one wants a slim neck and low action one must accept the fact that the neck will not be as stable as a thicker neck and a higher action. It just comes with the territory.There are eceptions of course such as my Hagstrom H2B with the slimest neck I have ever seen and has not required adjustment since 1969.
I have not seen Rogers bass so I don't now the details of the problem,but I have seen others with the same problems as Rogers and it was always due to an unrealisticly low action or climate changes.Ihope this works out for you Roger that is one beautiful bass.

Chuck

bigbadbill · « **Reply #57 on:** August 20, 2007, 05:48:54 AM »

Rog, please don't destroy your DW!!!!! At least sell it and let someone else deal with it (I'm surprised you haven't already to be honest)!!!! Even the THOUGHT of smashing that up hurts!!!!

s_wood · « **Reply #58 on:** August 20, 2007, 08:57:24 PM »

Roger and Alan: Why don't you ship you DW's back to Alembic and let them fix whatever ails them? They take tremendous pride in their instruments and I just know that it must be making them crazy to read about these problems without having the opportunity to fix them! Cliche but true: they stand behind what they sell.

bsee · « **Reply #59 on:** August 21, 2007, 01:13:20 AM »

Steve, they probably haven't done it for the same reason I haven't shipped my bass back to get the minor errors in the build repaired. The shipping cost is in excess of $100 when the insurance is factored in, there's the risk of damage or loss, and the bass is gone for several weeks. Unless you live around the corner from the factory, I think you tend to try to exhaust all possibilities before returning the instrument.

That said, if my bass were virtually unplayable as a result of neck problems, I would eat the cost and take the risk to send it back. For a minor dent, a missing LED control pot, and an electronics tweak, the risk is more questionable.

Alan will probably send his back one of these days, but the risks and costs for Roger must be magnified when shipping from the UK. I'll probably get around to shipping mine as well when the busy gig season is over. I keep hoping we'll plan another trip out there so I can hand carry it, though.

-Bob