Author Topic: Set Up Problem on Dragon Wing (Read 758 times)

bigredbass · « **Reply #30 on:** July 18, 2007, 11:27:50 AM »

Right, Bill, he gets no forward bow with the truss rods loose.

But with the height-over-the-last-fret he's quoting (very good measurements AJD) I know the bridge is NOT jacked up. So it obviously HAS some relief in the middle which he's quoting and sound right for a fairly low action, otherwise it'd buzz the length of the fingerboard.

So what I see is the frets near the nut are falling away instead of maintaining the even curve we hope to see.

It's doing this with virtually free-spinning truss rod nuts. BUT . . . it stops IF he tunes UP a whole step. That increased tension from the strings pulls the nut end of the neck in line.

So what I'm aiming for is to buy a different starting point for the truss rod nuts (by snugging them up against a dead straight fingerboard) and getting that neck dead straight to start with 'unloaded', hopefully allowing the truss rods to replace the increased pull instead of using strings he doesn't ordinarily use tuned up a whole step.

Hopefully the truss rods will hold the nut end in line once you remove the board. Maybe they won't and a heat bend is the only remedy.

The idea is to take up the slack and give the truss rods a different purchase. If the neck were perfect with a loose truss rod, you'd REALLY be at the mercy of tmep and humidity, etc.

Once it's re-strung it should acquire some amount of relief, and hopefully the setup should proceed normally with the trouble spot behaving itself. I would not be surprised if the setup would run a bit higher nut and a bit lower bridge.

Anyway, this was my thinking. It can't hurt anything and might save a trip to the heater. I could be utterly full of it, but is just seems like he's got enough truss rod for the rest of the fingerboard, just not quite enough for the first six frets. Nobody uses a truss rod that runs the length of the fingerboard. Reversed, this is why sometimes other guitars have a problem with the end of the fingerboard at the body.

Plus, I'm really coming to think new guitars need to REALLY be watched for the first year or two till it all settles down. I can't help but think this bass was played very little and never adjusted by the original owner (I bet it really is the strings it left Santa Rosa with). Buying an ALEMBIC for some is just not what they expected, and they go back to their Fenders as they never quite 'get it'. I bet this is one of them.

Some wood is like concrete and NEVER moves. Most is just going to breathe, move, until it finally dries through and through EVEN IF the builder is careful to use cured, aged, wood like ALEMBIC. It's just the mystery of wood. And in a sometimes aggravating way, it's beauty.

J o e y

bsee · « **Reply #31 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:18:54 PM »

That's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't use a 2x4 for that, Joey. The neck is probably stronger and will bend the 2x4 rather than the reverse. Take a page from house framing and make a little sandwich of 2x4 and plywood to use. It will be much more directionally stable than a 2x4 alone.

rogertvr · « **Reply #32 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:43:31 PM »

I'm going to throw in my opinion here. I've been conversing with Alan privately about his DW problems, I didn't want the whole thing to appear to be some sort of DW witch hunt.

Anyway, after almost of 12 months of ignoring my own DW, I decided to give it another try. I spent *** all day *** - yes, that's ALL DAY - yesterday messing around with truss rods etc etc.

I'm not going to go into the be-all and end-all of it, it was very labourious and boring and I'm leaving it a few days to see how it's settled down. One thing I remembered during the whole process was that I had the same problems Alan's been having, and it all came from the fact that I took off the Alembic strings it was shipped with (more about that shortly) and put on the brand I was playing at the time. Then it all went pear-shaped. THAT was when the neck problems started.

In the end (I'm going back about 3 and a half years here), I took the strings off it, slackened off the truss rod nuts until they were free spinning, and then put it back on its stand where it hung by the headstock. I left it like that for about a week, then re-strung it, re-tensioned the truss rods and got enough to work with so that I could stop the neck being convex and therefore the whole bass being unplayable.

The annoying thing was that I sent Mica a brand new set of the strings I was playing at the time, I asked for the bass to be set-up using them and Mica agreed to this, and they NEVER FITTED THEM! Mica sent them back about a month after I took delivery of the bass.

Some of you folks out there might like Alembic strings but personally, I have the view that compared to the quality of the instruments Alembic produces, I would rather fit the bass with four lengths of wool.

I understand where Joey is coming from, I just went about it a different way, letting the weight of the body pull the neck straight. I also bought my DW a new stand at the point I'd gone through the neck-straightening exercise, one where it sits on the stand rather than hangs from it and I noticed a bit difference in its playability. I suspect that hanging it by the headstock and the fact that the body is not symmetrical pulls the neck out of shape. Just a guess...

Anyway, I spent my hours yesterday setting the damn thing up and then played it for two hours, something I've never been able to do without the neck moving as I play, and it was near perfect. A joy to play and to behold. Perhaps it's the threat of being sawn up into small pieces that's been hanging over it - time will tell as the days draw on, but for now, it's gaining a little more favour with me! About time too...

As the original DW owner, if any of the DW owners out there need any help and advice off the forum, please e-mail me directly. If I can help, I will do my best.

Rog

senmen · « **Reply #33 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:04:40 PM »

Rog, Guys,
as I already mentioned in my post before also my problems with the neck started as I put off the Alembic strings and put on my favorite Rotosound Swing, SAME gauge as the Alembics were.
What is happening here?
Oliver (Spyderman)

ajdover · « **Reply #34 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:39:39 PM »

Gents,

OK, I took the strings off and used a straightedge (bought from Stew-Mac, a metal one) to check the level of the frets. Both truss rods were all the way out. I noticed a slight backbow, and it appeared that the center of the bow (where the the center of the rocking motion of the straightedge started) was at 12th fret (fret closest to the end of the fingerboard). However, it wasn't very significant, certainly no more than the .016 relief I normally go for. I didn't measure it (I probably should have and may do so yet), but it appears to me even if I do as Joey astutely suggests, I still won't get enough relief. Again, I could be wrong, but that's what I suspect. I also checked the fretboard to make sure it was flat and level (again, with a Stew Mac tool just for this purpose) and it was completely flat from what I could tell.

Right now it is strung up with the .45-.105 DRs, and I'm going to take it to Shomaker Music in Burlington, NC (we're having the NC Alembic gathering there) on Saturday. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm going to have them look at it as several club members have stated that they have a pretty good reputation of being able to figure such problems out.

All I know is it buzzes like mad between the 1st and 7th fret, regardless of string gauge, adjustments, etc.

I must say, however, that I appreciate every bit of advice and support from everyone, public and private. Special thanks goes out to Joey, Bill tgo, Oliver and Roger for assistance above and beyond the call of duty. I owe each of you a beverage of your choice should our paths ever cross in person.

Alan

bigredbass · « **Reply #35 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:59:52 PM »

Major, if we ever meet, your money's no good with me, I'm buying! You're certainly on top of the case with the StewMac straightedges, wish it would have worked. You're obviously getting to a point where I don't need to tell you anything!
Best of luck to you.

Roger, glad to see your Dragon has taken wing, finally, hope it continues to behave. I never thought of revving my SkilSaw in the room with an uncooperative bass, I think you're really on to something here. If I took one of those rechargeable ones into Geetar Center and revved it, wouldn't it be a great prank if they all jumped off the wall at the same time, like flushed birds?

I am NO FAN of hanging basses on the wall or a hanger stand. I know lots of people do it with no ill effects, but I much prefer letting them put their weight on their butts.

J o e y

s_wood · « **Reply #36 on:** July 18, 2007, 08:06:06 PM »

Maybe this will help: a couple of years ago I had a problem with a Modulus Quantum 5 - one of the older ones without a truss rod. The bass developed a significant backbow and was buzzing badly at and below the 7th fret. (Don't believe the hype - graphite necks can move, and when they do the problems are much harder to correct!)

Anyway, I called Modulus about the problem assuming that I would need a new neck. The tech with whom I spoke asked me if I was using DR roundwounds, and when I told him that I was he suggested that I replace them with another brand of strings (he suggested GHS) because DR strings have a very low tension, as compared to other roundwounds of a similar gauge. Suspicious bastard that I am I didn't believe the guy, so I called DR and asked them if their roundwounds did indeed have less tension than other brands. They agreed that was true. So, I changed string brands to GHS, and within two weeks the neck had moved such that the backbow was gone, replaced by just a touch of relief (as I like it).

By the way, I use DR roundwounds on all of my Alembics with no problems whatsoever, but perhaps by using a string brand with a higher tension you can pull the neck into appropriate relief.

ajdover · « **Reply #37 on:** July 18, 2007, 08:58:40 PM »

Steve,

Interesting. I'll pick up a set of Rotos and other strings just to see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the info!

Alan

David Houck · « **Reply #38 on:** July 19, 2007, 10:38:58 AM »

Just to reinforce, for everyone reading this thread, what Steve and others above have stated, string gauge and string tension are not the same thing. Two different types or brands of strings of the same gauge can have different tensions. Thus, if you are playing a very low action, changing to a different type or brand of string, even of the same gauge, can significantly change the action if the strings don't have the same tension.

chuck · « **Reply #39 on:** July 19, 2007, 01:08:14 PM »

The first rule of troubleshooting is what has changed.
Chuck

ajdover · « **Reply #40 on:** July 19, 2007, 02:49:58 PM »

OK,

Couldn't find Rotos, but I did pick up a set of Ken Smith Rock Masters, .45-.105, and some Dean Markley Blue Steels, .45-.100. Here's what I did.

1 - Took the DR Hi Beams, .45-.105 off of the DW. Before I did that, I took measurements of the relief and action. The bass was tuned to E-A-D-G, measured using a Peterson Strobo Flip Digital Tuner. Truss Rod nuts were all the way out and barely snug just to keep them from moving around freely. Relief was .005 at the 10th fret, using feeler gauges. Action was 3/32 at the 24th fret on the E string, about the same on teh G string measured at the same position.

2 - Put on the Ken Smith Strings (Stainless Steel like the DRs, roundwound, same gauge).

3 - Tuned the bass to E-A-D-G.

4 - Took relief and action measurements as above. Relief was the same .005; action was 3/32 at 24th fret on the E string, and action was somewhere between 1/8 and 5/32 on the G-string. Still buzzed between the 1st and 7th frets, and on the E string up to about the 10th-11th frets.

It's worth noting that all string changes, adjustments, measurements were taken in the same climatic environment, namely my bass room, where the temperature is a constant 73 degrees Fahrenheit, and the humdity is 55%. I don't think that's the problem as none of my other instruments, as I've stated before (including my other Alembics with similar neck wood configurations) exhibit this problem.

I'll watch it over the next few days to see what happens. I'm also taking it to the NC Alembic Gathering on Saturday - maybe someone will have an idea of what else I can do short of a heat bend.

Alan

(Message edited by ajdover on July 19, 2007)

adriaan · « **Reply #41 on:** July 20, 2007, 05:20:28 AM »

I wonder what happens if you slap on the Alembic strings again ... Perhaps they are higher tension than any of the other brands you're trying?

keavin · « **Reply #42 on:** July 20, 2007, 05:57:09 AM »

Could it Be the Dragon Wing Design is Cursed???

s_wood · « **Reply #43 on:** July 20, 2007, 06:46:32 PM »

AJ:

When I pulled the neck on my Modulus into relief by swapping out the DR's it took at least a week before I noticed a difference, and probably 2 weeks before I pronounced the problem fixed. Give it time...

bigbadbill · « **Reply #44 on:** July 24, 2007, 08:54:08 AM »

As a slight aside from all this (which I find fascinating BTW), did John Entwistle really have his action at 0.8mm? I have the book of his collection and on most of the pictures his action looks higher than mine, although obviously I'd heard that his was ridiculously low. My action is generally about 1/16th at the twelfth, which is pretty low, although I know for a fact Roger's is way lower than that.

Back to the issue at hand, as I once told Roger, I once had a custom built 6 string which would not settle. I had it over 3 years, and I could never get it to settle for more than a few days. What made it unbearable was that every time I took it out to a gig it became completely unplayable; despite adjustments at the venue, by half way through the set at the very best I always ended up either with the strings rattling away dreadfully or an unplayable action. I sold it in the end. I'd love to know whether its current owner experiences the same problems.

What I find bizarre in this instance is that so many of the Dragon Wings seem to be exhibiting the same problem. I wouldn't have thought they'd be any different to other Alembic as I'm sure the neck is constructed in the same way. Obviously you'll always get the odd instrument that will move more, but this really does seem unusual. Best of luck to everyone concerned, and Roger, I really hope you're getting to the bottom of yours.