Set Up Problem on Dragon Wing

[ajdover]

Folks, need some help here.
 
I've been experiencing trouble in getting my Dragon Wing set up.  Namely, it buzzes badly betwen the 1st and 7th frets.
 
I've done all the usual things, e.g., followed Joey's setup advice, let the instrument sit a few days, raised the action, lowered the action, made nut adjustments based on Joey's post, made sure it was in tune while adjusting, put a heavier gauge string on it, etc.  Nothing has worked.
 
Basically, there is no relief in the neck whatsoever.  I mean none, with both truss rod nuts all the way out and barely snug. No matter how much I let out on the truss rods, what gauge string I use (it currently has .45-.105 DR Hi Beams on it), I can't get any forward bow to any significant degree in the neck.
 
I really don't want to have to send it to someone for a heat bend, particularly with a heavier gauge on it.  As I see it, it should set up just fine with standard gauge (which is what it came with).  I normally use .40-.100 DRs, and I figured that was the problem.  It isn't.
 
Anyone have any other suggestions other than a luthier?
 
Thanks,
 
Alan

[David Houck]

My guess would be that the problem may be humidity.  But if your bass has constantly been in an air conditioned low humidity environment, then that's not it.

[chuck]

Alan  
Try putting some extra tension on the strings.
Tune up one or two notes evenly on all strings.with the truss rod loose and let set a few days.This worked for me on an old guitar.
If it does'nt work at least it will do no harm.
 
Chuck
 
(Message edited by chuck on July 14, 2007)

[ajdover]

Dave,
 
    My Wing has been in its case, in my air conditioned house.  Our temp is usually around 70-72 degrees F.  I know humidity isn't the issue.  None of my other basses, to include my Alembics exude this problem.
 
Chuck,
 
    I actually thought about doing that.  I may give it a try, and it's a great tip.  Thanks!
 
Alan

[ajdover]

An Update ....
 
I tuned my DW up one whole step (F sharp, B, E A) and the buzz between the 1st and 7th Frets has completely disappeared.  There's about .016 of relief at the 10th fret.  This would be fine except I use a standard E-A-D-G tuning.
 
I'm beginning to suspect there is something wrong with the neck.  None of my other Alembics, which are in identical climatic and environmental conditions exhibit this behavior.  May have to send it back to the Mothership or get a heat bend.  Interestingly enough, others have noted a similar problem on a DW (Roger S., Rick K.).  In the meantime, it's in its stand tuned up.  I'll let it sit a few days and see if that fixes the problem.  More to follow.
 
Alan

[bsee]

I said it on another thread, but I can't believe that there's anything inherently different about the DW neck as compared to any other Alembic makes.  I have seen threads about Alembic setting up basses with the strings you intend to play and that it is sometimes impossible to set up for a much lighter gauge than what was specified.  
 
Note also that different brands and models of strings have different tensions at the same gauges.  If you're using strings that tend to be loose for their size, then they won't put as much tension on the neck.  The tension you need to tune a string is more a function of the mass than it is of the thickness.  There might be some more massive .45 or .40 strings that could help.
 
-bob

[ajdover]

Bob,
 
   I bought this bass used, but in absolute mint condition.  It came with the stock Alembic Strings .45-.105.  I had no input on the construction so that it could acommodate lighter gauge strings.  It came as is.  It now has DR High Beams on it, .45-.105, now tuned a step higher (F sharp, B, E, and A) to try to alleviate the almost total lack of relief in the neck.
 
    In my experience it is possible to set up a bass for a lighter gauge than intended by the manufacturer.  I have Pedulla, Fender, Gibson, Musicman (both pre and post Ernie Ball), Rickenbacker, Guild, Ovation, Godin, Martin, and Peavey Basses. All, with the exception of the acoustic-electrics (Ovation, Martin, and Godin) are strung with DR Hi Beams, .40-.100.  All of them came equipped with .45-.105 strings, roundwound (I use roundwounds).  None of them exhibit the problems I have on my DW, and they cost thousands less.  I have successfully set all of them up with lighter gauge strings, with no buzz at all between the 1st and 7th frets, and indeed up and down the fretboard with an acceptable action (to me) (5/32 at the 12th fret on the E string, and 3/32 at the 12th fret on the G string).
 
    I understand different makes have different tensions at different gauges.  I'm going to pick up some different makes of strings, same gauge, and try them out to see if that makes a difference.  My guess is it won't, but we'll see.  I don't like standard gauge strings, so I may end up sending it to Santa Rosa for a heat bend.  
 
Alan
 
(Message edited by ajdover on July 13, 2007)
 
(Message edited by ajdover on July 13, 2007)

[bsee]

I agree with everything you say, I just recall seeing some comments on the boards here about Alembic basses having problems when going to looser/lighter strings.  I would think that DR strings would play fairly tight for their size if the talk about their tite-fit process is reality.  Either way, I wouldn't expect problems with a 45-100 or 45-105 set.  
 
I wonder if there might really be something with DW basses?  Does the neck enter the body at an unusually high fret or something?  Other than that, or that the basses were ordered with skinny necks, I can't see a reason for this seeming coincidence.
 
Hopefully a little training with the heavier strings will help it out, but I fear that it may have to stay that way for a fair amount of time to have any lasting impact.  Maybe you'll have to play a set of 50-110 strings for a few months if you actually want it to play?  Good luck!

[senmen]

Alan, Guys,
ok, I already sent Alan a mail rgdg this but I think I now have to enter my exeriences also.
Also with my DW Tears for John, I spot the same problems. They are not that serious as they had been on my Spyder4 but they are present and I think I have to live with it. As I got the Dragon in March this year it was very stable. No neck movements until I changed the original Alembic strings some weeks ago to my favorites, Rotosound Swing 45-105. Same gauge.
The neck moved after I had changed to the Rotosounds. We have strange weather situations here due to the climate change here in Germany now. It was really hot in April, since May until June changes between heat and strong rain. Now again, strong heat and the neck moves, of course. Additionally of course it is that sensitive as I run a very low action like John did with a 0,8mms space at the 24th fret between upper side of fret and underside of string. Means very low, to low possibly for a normal bass player, but I do Thunderfingers.
Mostly I don?t adjust the neck that much, I mainly work with slightly raising or lowering the bridge, which works very well.
But I have to tune/check more often. At the moment, with rehearsal two times per week, I have to change the strings every 3-4 weeks. They are dead after this time for my needs, as I need a bright and piano like tone.
Additionally I have to say that my DW has the neck dimensions of the Spyders, more broader that the normal DWs have with 4,5cms at the nut.
What do you think?
Oliver (Spyderman)

[ajdover]

Bob,
 
    .50-.110 is not a gauge I'd ever use - way too heavy for me.  I'd just as soon use telephone wires! ;-)
 
     My bass was bought used but in mint condition.  The neck isn't Rick 4001 skinny - it's closer to a Musicman/Fender Jazz in depth, about 1.6 at the nut or so.  I don't think the shape/size of the neck has anything to do with it - it's not at all different construction wise from the neck on my Europa, which has exhibited no problems neck-wise in the same environment.
 
     It's interesting that it will play fine with Alembic strings, but other gauges seemingly cause problems.  Like I said, I'm going to try some different brands and see what happens.  More to follow.
 
Alan

[rogertvr]

Well I thought that I might as well chip in here, as I've got the first DW that was made.
 
I'd like to say that I haven't played mine for almost 12 months now.  Any instrument that you have to spend 30 minutes setting-up before you can play it, before every time that you play it, tends to cave your head in after a while!
 
Mine too always became unplayable between the 1st and 7th frets.  In fact, the neck could move so much, and I'm talking within the space of three hours from a perfect set-up, that the strings would be lying on the frets.  It could be left alone like that and next time the action would be so high to be uncomfortable for me to play.
 
Sorry, but for this sort of money, that's unacceptable.  I even tried learning to play with a higher action (about 1.2mm instead of the 0.8mm I prefer) but the problem persisted.
 
I monitored weather, humidity, temperature for months, every single day.  Day after day.  No pattern appeared, the neck has a mind of its own.
 
It sits on its stand now looking cute.  I bought a Japanese-made Fender Precision for ?400 to hack around on and the neck on that never moves, the action is about 1mm which I'm happy to go with.  I prefer playing that to spending my time fighting with a bass worth an inordinate amount of money that seems to have a mind of its own that should be in a completely different league.
 
I've completely given-up on it.  Life is too short.  What should have been an amazing on-going experience is a nightmare and I really wish (with the benefit of hindsight of course) that I'd never ever started this whole DW thing...

[adriaan]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of this isn't due to the mass of wood under your elbow - it may be 'pulling' the entire bass flat (as in the wheelbarrow effect, or whatever you call it in English). In other words, if you could measure the action in playing position, it might be lower than you think.

[rogertvr]

After some input from Mica a few years ago, I set my basses up now (where possible) with them over my shoulder.  Even so, not doing that doesn't account for an instrument that can be perfectly set-up one hour and unplayable in three hours time.  Then the action moves to being too high a few hours later.  That's fundamental instability and even if I never took another spanner or allen key to it again, that process would not stop.
 
I've always thought it was just my DW but with these reports being posted, I'm beginning to wonder if there is some fundamental flaw somewhere.

[ajdover]

I measure my action and relief in the sitting position as if I'm playing the bass.  No matter what adjustments I make, it still buzzes unless I raise the action really high.  Generally speaking, I'm at about 5/32 on the E string and at about 3/32 on the G string, measured at the 24th th fret.  I've raised it even higher, raised the nut, you name it.  I either end up with something that buzzes like mad, or is unplayable (to me anyway, and I'm not an extreme low action kind of guy).  It's worth noting that even with both truss rod nuts completely loose (only snugged up against the threads to hold them in place) there is virtually no relief in the neck when measured at the 10th-11th fret, and I mean damn near nothing.  Again, I've tried everything I can think of, and I'm thinking it is a neck problem, not a set up problem.  This neck just doesn't want to bow forward no matter what I do.  And it's three years old, so it shouldn't be a wood age thing.  The tree has been dead for sometime now; I don't think that's the issue.  What I'm thinking is it needs a heat bend.  Nothing else I've tried works.
 
Alan

[lbpesq]

Sounds like a heat bend is needed.  Without some natural forward bow in the neck, it will never set up properly.  Alan, I assume this has an ebony fretboard.  My electric luthier, Gary Brawer, told me that this type of problem is not uncommon with an ebony fretboard, given the strength of ebony.
 
Bill, tgo