Author Topic: Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville  (Read 773 times)

lidon2001

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2007, 02:42:29 PM »
Sorry Dallek, I just stopped by the store and Kevin wasn't in.  He can be difficult to get in touch with at times.  I'll update if I learn anything more about the swap.
2005 MK Deluxe SSB, 2006 Custom Amboyna Essence MSB, Commissioned Featured Custom Pele

1dallek1

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2007, 05:04:30 PM »
I didn?t mean any offence but the person hit me 2 times with selling my pickups and no real info, as I said I don?t want to sell anything, next I didn?t think the dimarzio would mate with your electronics but I had to try, the big problem is the conversion needs a strat style pickup selector for 3 pickups, Somewhere in this conversion I need a 5 way selector, now here is my new question, my 79 series 2 guitar has a rotating pickup selector which I believe can be installed in one of the pot holes, can I get this switch made in 5 position I have been at the companies web page but was overwhelmed by there selection
dallek
ps
in response to BSEE i used the height to no avail but i really dont know what trim pots you mean, i have studied the cavity and see trims on the filters but alembic supplies no technical info i could find so i hesitate to touch this

mica

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2007, 06:52:19 PM »
This sheet with instructions for the electronics should have shipped with your guitar. I realize now that there wasn't a link in the FAQ for it, so I just made one.  
 
Our rotary switches are 4-position. There are so many variations, I'll need to ask for some help from my dad to give you advice on a 5-position version.  
 
You can make a brass plate to mount a blade switch and have if cover the original pickup selector holes. You could always make another plate to mount the three toggles again if you wanted to go back. Something similar looking to this guitar maybe.

mica

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2007, 06:55:26 PM »
I was thinking about this a little, and I wonder if you already have a guitar that nails the Jerry sound for you, wouldn't it be nice to have your Tribute sound different from the Phiga? I'm not trying to talk you out of doing what you need to do, but I am curious.

1dallek1

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2007, 05:47:11 AM »
well well well, my effects loop was after the volume and was glued in place? my father is a doctor so I have surgical tools otherwise I couldn't have changed it. the documentation for the loop was not in my packet thanks for posting it. anyway my mutron is responding correctly now, so that helps. the alembic sound is bright if anyone thinks im wrong what can I say garcia also thought so but I?m staying like this for now. I have reservations about cutting into an alembic like this, greater minds than mine went into creating this thing , then there comes me the B movie mad scientist messing with nature, no good would come of it, pull the string, pull the string  
ns

lbpesq

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2007, 08:59:28 AM »
Cornelius:
 
If you do ever try hooking up some DiMarzio's to the Alembic eletronics, please report back on the results.  I, for one, am certainly curious about the outcome of such a marraige.  (It seems to me if you picked up three of the plug-in connectors Alembic uses on their pickups and put them on some DiMarzio's, you could easily just swap pickups in and out.  I suspect this would work, other than you'd probably need to turn the preamps down for the DiMarzio's).  
 
About your Phiga, how would you describe the neck profile?  I have a Phiga Casta.  Interesting guitar, but the neck is huge, almost a baseball bat!  (Not my favorite).
 
Bill, tgo

1dallek1

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2007, 11:35:45 AM »
ok this is the second time i hear about preamps, the filters have small pots on them these are just simple trims for gain control and not some kond of fancy impedance matching? you can adjust these without messing up anything, i really dont know because again i dont have any real info on what is going on in the cavity. yes my neck is big but thats how i like it in fact i have trouble with the tribute becouse there isn't enough  there for me to work with

82daion

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2007, 11:53:07 AM »
The pots are gain trim controls, nothing more.
 
They're there in order to keep the volume of all three pickups consistent when you select each individually.  
 
What Bill's saying is that the output of the Dimarzio's would be huge as opposed to the output of the Alembic pickups, and the trim setting you'd use with the stock electronics would be excessive in that configuration; you'd need to turn the trimpots down to keep a reasonable output.
 
And no, you can't really mess anything up by adjusting the trimpots.

1dallek1

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2007, 07:58:26 PM »
Thanks to all this was not what I expected but it couldn't have turned out better, the loop belongs before the volume, I had no way of knowing this was set wrong. The sound is a little bright so I don't have to use the boss eq; Garcia mated his distortion boxed with separate boss eq's for tone correction, the sd2's need brightening when running through distortion boxes but not so much with the alembic pickups. Anyway it is responding correctly with my rack and as mica said it is nice to have a little different sound with all the fundamentals still there. This was a simple fix
1dallek1
ps here is the electronics in the phiga I had to completely redo it and i added the battery box  
 
(Message edited by 1dallek1 on November 04, 2007)

dfung60

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2007, 12:28:04 AM »
You've already got some definitive responses here from Mica, but I thought I'd ring in with a few thoughts.
 
First, I would concur that you should be able to substitute DiMarzios (or any other pickup) in place of the OEM Alembic pickups, and the only way that you can decide whether you like the change or not is to try it.  
 
You'll need to either feel comfortable attacking the installation yourself or have an adventurous tech to go after this.  The actual pickup connections are no big deal (the new pickup connections replace the old), but everything they attach to internally in the control cavity will be different than pretty much every guitar out there.  There will be connectors (which you could just lop off, but wouldn't that be a shame?), unusual EQ boards, and a lot of wiring.
 
My experience is mostly with Series basses, and I think the guitar pickups are much less radical than the SC-1 pickups.  Alembic is like nothing else out there - they use a very weak magnet and very little wiring on the coil, which has the result of a very, very low output pickup with only a fraction of the normal output.  There's very specific reasons for this.  The lower strength magnet reduces magnetic drag on the string which gives greater sustain and much purer harmonics.  Less wire on the coil means less resistance which means better highs.  It also means less inductance in the coil which also creates a different frequency response (the coil inductance is a big factor in the distinctive EQ hump of most pickups).  If you took this wimpy output out passively to the amp, you wouldn't be able to drive the amp to full output and would probably suffer a lot of noise problems.  So, the internal preamps buffer and boost the signal to normal (and super-normal) levels.  That means the internal preamps of a Series bass will be set with high gain than the sort of active EQ circuits designed to work with conventional passive pickups.  
 
I'll add incidentally, that the low magnet strength and low output transducer coil are also the EMG design principle, and they include the preamp inside the pickup to avoid noise problems and isolate the EQ boards.  EMG also is a hum-cancelling design inside the potted case, so even the Strat-sized EMGs are humbuckers (that's why they hum less).
 
If the DiMarzios are high output pickups, then you may well find that they will overdrive the front end of the EQ circuit.  You can reduce the pickup output level with a resistor, but this may cause additional tonal changes.  If the input level is the problem, you really want to fix that in the EQ board, but that means you'd have to puzzle out the design of that PCB and figure out the appropriate component changes.  This may not be a problem - the Series pickups are very unusual, and, from the general flow of discussions around here, it doesn't sound like the other bass pickups (and perhaps the guitar pickups) are as low output.  
 
The unusual pickup design is definitely part of the Alembic Sound.  If you take a DiMarzio, Duncan, or Gibson pickup, they all have similar magnetic field strength and coil winding.  Different choices in construction (diameter of the wire or magnet composition) will yield different tones, but the magnetic field that the string is sitting in is pretty similar for any of these.  The Alembic design sees the string in a different way - whether that's good or not is totally subjective and definitely getting in to the mystical/voodoo zone.
 
Finding an alternate rotary selector switch may be problematic.  If you wanted a 5-position switch that selected from 5 different inputs it would be no big deal, but when you want some of those positions to be combinations of other inputs, it gets complicated quick in the switch internals.  The manufacturers will build anything you want if you want thousands of them (which is why 3- and 5-position blade switches and crazy PRS pickup selector switches can exist) but if you want one, you'll probably be in for a battle.  
 
You didn't say it in the thread directly, but if what you were looking for was the sound of the Alembic woods and construction with more traditional electronics, I certainly can understand that.  If I were going to try this, I would probably think about removing and setting aside the factory pickups and EQ and building up a second set of electronics.  When you're talking about mods on a Tribute, you're way past the money is no object stage, and I suspect the replacement cost of just the Tribute electronics will exceed the cost of most whole guitars.  If you try to graft more traditional electronics onto your Tribute EQ boards, you may find that the changes are too complicated to work out and not easily reversed.  If you later decide to sell this guitar, you'll probably find that you'll take a truly horrendous hit on the resale value if you can't reverse your changes.
 
Good luck,
 
David Fung

1dallek1

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2007, 03:57:54 AM »
this clearly explains the brightness and articulation you get from alembic and maybe just the brightness of the emg. the jerry mod cost me around 300 in parts I do all the work so its dirt cheep, but I have a problem with cutting into the tribute, you see it needs a strat style pickup selector or similar . it isn't money or value the thing is a work of art plus when I approach it with a router I keep hearing get out, get out and the walls start bleeding
ha ha  
ns
i just want to throw this out there, i'll probabally get in trouble for this to, in my experience alembic pickups dont break up well with distortion they get a real brittle sound. with work you can get it sort of right but its a problem for me anyway
 
(Message edited by 1dallek1 on November 05, 2007)

terryc

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2007, 08:07:36 AM »
Maybe I am missing the point but it's like getting a ferrari then putting a ford escort engine in it??
Each to their own I suppose

dfung60

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2007, 11:27:09 AM »
Electrically or sonically the three pickup toggles on your Tribute (if that's the way yours is configured) isn't any different than a 5-way blade - it just feels different to use.  And you gain the all pickups on position.
 
I personally would never consider routing the top for a new switch or even a brass plate to hold blade or toggles - you've got a carved top there and the whoops factor is just too terrifying if you didn't have a big milling machine and a custom body fixture!  
 
As for the brittle sound...  In normal guitars, there's sort of a conspiracy of events that gently robs you of your treble - overwound pickups, passive electronics that don't totally bypass, and the capacitance and resistance of your guitar cord.  In an instrument like the Alembic, they've solved all the normal problems, but if you're looking for a traditional sound that might not be good.  The result is more treble at your amp or rack input which results in the brittleness of tone.  
 
A sort of very simple treble roll-off tone control at the front of your effects chain would probably solve the problem, but I don't know of anybody that makes anything like this.  The overall effect of regular guitar wiring is so subtle that most people would feel like it was a box that wasn't doing anything.  Normal EQ boxes have very sharp filtering curves to create a lot of effect in localized areas.  You sort of need the opposite - a very wide-ranging, gentle EQ curve (like -3db/octave) that works over a wide range of the audio spectrum.  
 
David Fung

lbpesq

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2007, 12:25:13 PM »
David:
 
I would think that the toggles on the Further/Tribute package cannot just be swapped out for a traditional Strat-style blade switch.  The blade is off/on only.  Each of the toggles on the F/T set up is off/on/bright.  What happens to the bright setting if swapped out for the blade with no mods?
 
Bill, tgo

Bradley Young

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Tribute pickups/electronics lost road to jerryville
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2007, 03:01:59 PM »
David,
 
The original Alembic filter design was built to solve just the problem you outline (for bass, however).  As Ron kept solving issues (with muddy tone-- by adding things like an onboard preamp), it became difficult to produce the original tone, hence the need for low-pass filters.
 
And I suspect that a superfilter would do what you're suggesting.
 
Bradley
 
Edited for clarity
 
(Message edited by byoung on November 05, 2007)