Author Topic: Extension to top horn?  (Read 675 times)

bigbadbill

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Extension to top horn?
« on: June 19, 2008, 05:41:45 AM »
As many around here will know, I have chronic back problems that have recently worsened again and my Triple O is exacerbating them, so much so that at the moment it's just sat in its case.
 
Although the overall weight is an issue, I do feel that there seems to be a lot of weight in the neck area (although it balances fine), probably due to how far out the neck sits, which creates a lot of downforce through my left shoulder, in turn irritating the bad lumbar disc on my lhs.        
 
I was talking to Martin Petersen at the Gallery a while back and he suggested something that someone had done to a P-Bass he had in. Where the strap button entered the top horn, they'd cut a piece of tubing (in this case brass, but it could be pretty much anything solid enough) maybe a couple of inches long to extend the strap button. Basically the strap button was attached through this extension tube with a much longer screw which then went into the body. It basically meant that the guitar was brought more to the right, bringing first position in more towards the body, and I assume lessened the pressure on the left shoulder whilst improving the balance (although in this case balance per se is not an issue).  
 
I was wondering about the feasibility of something similar as a last ditch attempt to make my Triple O useable. Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially from Mica & The Elves. Bear in mind my Triple O is hollow; I don't know if that will make it unworkeable.

bassman68

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 06:15:00 AM »
Hi Bill,
Sorry to hear of your back problems, It gets to us all in the end.:-(
I have seen similar button extensions before for thunderbirds & similar neck heavy basses, A friend of mine made his own, very similar to the one you described & has now given his vintage thunderbird a new lease of life.
It's odd how a couple of extra inches affects the centre of balance (for the better)((ooh er missus!)). Give it a try, it would be a shame to lose your bass for the sake of the visual norm.

cozmik_cowboy

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 06:53:38 AM »
I'd be worried about the pressure that the leverage of the extra length would exert on the wood - it seems it would be likely to tear the screw out of the hole, and drilling deep enough to offset that would scare me.
Did you ever try the Slider Strap harness strap as was discussed in your previous back thread a year or 2 ago? If so, did it help?
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

bigbadbill

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 11:38:47 AM »
Never managed to get hold of an actual Slider Peter, but I rigged up something not dissimilar and for various reasons unfortunately felt it wasn't really working for me.
 
The pressure exerted on the wood was one of the things that worried me, especially since the bass is hollow.

jacko

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2008, 04:46:15 AM »
Have a look down this link Shaun. I posted a picture of a button extension Freekbass uses.  
I would be too scared the wood would rip with that!
 
Graeme

David Houck

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2008, 07:24:57 PM »
It would seem to me that, no matter where the strap button is, all of the weight of the instrument is still on the left shoulder.
 
Why did the Slider type strap not work?

dfung60

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2008, 10:39:41 PM »
The issue here is common with Alembics and many through-body instruments.  The problem comes from too much of a good thing.  When you have through-body construction, one of the great things is that you can get rid of a lot of the wood at the neck joint since you don't require a lot of material where the neck and body pieces join (e.g. the neck pocket on a bolt-on or the dovetail area of a set-neck).  Now that you can slim that area down, you can create a lot of access to the high frets and the cutaways can reach a lot deeper in than on a more conventional instrument.
 
But all this shifting can really mess up the balance.  If you look at a P-bass, the strap button position is over the 13th fret or so; for a large-body Series bass, it's over the 18th fret and for a small body (like Stanley Clarke's instruments) is probably over the 20th fret.  That's a big shift.  
 
It's not an accident that the P-Bass horn ends up over there - it's pretty much extended out to the zone where the instrument will balance.  The balance of a Series bass won't be like a P-bass, but it's inherently less balanced, which is the cause of the neck dive that people complain about.  
 
There's a temptation with any through-body design to shift things around like this, although you often see a long upper horn to compensate (check out a Tobias, Rickenbacker, or old Veillette-Citron).  I think this comes mostly from the fact that a through-body can give much better access to the high frets, but will look really odd with a super deep cutaway on one side and a regular one on top of the neck.
 
There are actually a number of very interesting workarounds that have come up.  One of the best is the pivot plate/boomerang system on the Steinberger L and XL basses.  These are the original boat-oar models that are truly the boiled-down essence of a through-body instrument (these original instruments are a single-piece composite construction).  There's a gigantic bolt near the center of mass of the instrument that attaches a boomerang shaped plate that can rotate somewhat freely.  The strap ends both attach to the ends of the boomerang.  Since the pivot is at the center of gravity, the instrument's natural tendency is to pretty much stay where you leave it - it's very neutral.  Since the strap ends are both ending up in front of you, the weight distributes more evenly as well.  The balance point is quite a ways back in the body because of the mass of the composite material as well as the lack of a headstock and tuners at the end of the neck.
 
Ned Steinberger must be really interested in solving this problem because he has used straphook extensions on other instruments as well to improve feel.  The NS/Bolin bass has a singlecut body design that wouldn't normally balance very well, but has a rotating straphook that extends out to the P-bass position. (They're no longer in production, but you can see pix on eBay under bolin ns.)  I have one of these basses, and it's a pretty good idea that doesn't really work very well (they needed to make a locking straphook instead of one that just flips out like this).  
 
Ned must have realized this because the Steinberger Synapse, a modern wood instrument that's vaguely reminiscent of his original stuff uses a fixed metal strap hook extender.  You can see a little of it here - http://www.steinberger.com/XS15FPACST.html
 
If you're willing to perform surgery on your Alembic, you can probably try out Ned's NSDesign Boomerang Strap System (http://www.nedsteinberger.com/instruments/systems.php#boom) which is a sort of recreation of the XL design that was created for people who wanted to play the NS Cello like an electric bass.  It's a pretty sophisticated design with a friction clutch where the big screw was before.  You can adjust the arms of the boomerang to be comfortable for your position and set the tension of the clutch so the instrument stays where you want it to.  NS Design makes a modified version for non-NS Design instruments.  You need to mount the big clutch at the balance point of the instrument, and I have no idea whether that is even on the body for some of the more radical Alembics.  I haven't tried this out myself, but know the guy that sells the modified version for non-NSDesign instruments (it's from NSDesign, but they don't provide support for mounting on other instruments).  
 
Finally, on a slightly unrelated note, there's work on the other end of the strap too.  The problem of all the weight ending up on one shoulder is somewhat inherent in the traditional design.  There was an interesting strap that just appeared in the last year for golf bags, called the Ogio Schling, which replaced the traditional over-the-shoulder or backpack-style straps of a golf bag.  I guess it was a little too interesting, as it appears to have disappeared from the market already.  It was a pretty interesting idea - there was a big rigid arm that was like a yoke that fit over both your shoulders.  From that a single strap extended down to the bag.  When you wanted to pick the bag up, you lifted the entire yoke over your shoulders and it distributed the weight across both of them.  It was all an interesting trick of balance.  You can see some pictures of what the yoke looked like here - http://www.golfblogger.com/index.php/golf/comments/ogio_flight_ss_schling_stand_bags/.  Something like this would definitely work for a bass too, if you could suffer through the R&D of making it happen.  
 
In all these cases, the real challenge is that you want the ends of the strap to join as close to the cente of mass of the instrument as possible.
 
David Fung

elwoodblue

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2008, 10:51:00 PM »
That makes sense ,seems you would need to  redistribute the weight to the other shoulder,or use a phil-esque sheepskin oversize pad.(I've considered using my golf bag strap)
 
[ Then there is zz-top's buckle pivoting strap-lock...that could create other issues.]
 
(Message edited by elwoodblue on June 20, 2008)

bigbadbill

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 10:14:27 AM »
Hi Graeme - the extension I saw was a lot more substantial looking than that, and certainly didn't look like it would rip the wood, but I guess I'd never know 'til I've tried it, which for obvious reasons I'm a bit loathe to do!  
 
The Slider-esque idea I rigged up just didn't seem to work. I think David has hit on the crucial thing, which is that the bass needs to be supported from a  different point entirely (thanks for the post BTW David; some interesting stuff in there). Unfortunately I'm most certainly not willing to perform such surgery on my Alembic, so I guess it's back to the drawing board....I guess the problem of the instrument ultimately being too heavy isn't going to go away, regardless. Now where's that Super Soldier Serum when I need it?  ( a Marvel comics reference for all those who think I just flipped... )

keith_h

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 10:51:17 AM »
Back in the late 70's a bass player I knew with a bad back had a strap that had a single point attachment on the regular bottom strap button and then split into a Y so that a strap then went over each shoulder to attach to the horn button. I tried it and found it to be quite comfortable as it distributed the weight across both shoulders.  Have you tried something like that yet?  
 
Keith

tbrannon

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 11:33:52 AM »
Bill,
 
If you're looking to extend the top horn button position, have you considered a strap like those used on acoustic guitars (where the strap attaches all the way up at the nut)?
 
I'm not sure it would reduce the strain on your back, but it would certainly change the weight distribution.  This page has an Ashbory strung that way for balance purposes- not sure how it would affect balance or hang on a 34-35 scale bass...
http://www.largesound.com/ashboryarticle/mod/strapmove/

cozmik_cowboy

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 06:34:26 AM »
That suggestion came up once on another thread, Toby, and I responded with this story: years ago, I would frequently play a friend's H?fner-clone violin bass.  It had lost the front button, so he tied the strap on at the nut accoustic-style.  You'd start with it hung at 2:00, and with in a few bars the nut would be at your shoulder, the body would be over your magic parts, & the A tuner would be in your left ear.  Not optimum.  As it was a true hollow body, and thus no doubt more inclined to neck dive than any Alembic, I would think that this system would be even less workable for Bill.
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

bigbadbill

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2008, 05:19:33 AM »
I've actually tried that with similar results to Peter. It was, well, interesting!
 
I can't help but be reminded of my first thought upon seeing Jimmy Johnson in the flesh recently, which was something to the effect of cripes, he's got a really pronounced stoop. I think I know why....  
 
(Message edited by bigbadbill on June 24, 2008)

rob_steen

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 04:41:30 AM »
Hi.
 
I tried to post this already - so my apologies if it shows up twice.
 
I came across this strap on another forum :  
 
http://www.thomann.de/ie/planet_waves_50dare000_gitarrengurt.htm
 
It splits over both shoulders. It might help with the weight distribution - but the position of the guitar looks all wrong.
 
Just thought I'd post it to see if it could help.
 
- Rob.

bigbadbill

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Extension to top horn?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 04:59:32 AM »
That actually looks like it would make little difference to the weight distribution; the weight still appears to be on the left shoulder, with the right hand strap just resting. But thanks for posting! I think the balance point on the guitar is the real answer, as David said.