Author Topic: F1-X with Crown Drivecore XLS1000  (Read 1800 times)

sonicus

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F1-X with Crown Drivecore XLS1000
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2015, 07:57:14 AM »
Gregory,
                I have done business with Avatar recently and have been very happy with how the business was conducted. I recently purchased 8 ( eight) Faital NEO 10PR300 ten inch 16 ohm speakers from them to replace the OEM SWR units in my four SWR Goliath JR cabinets. I am very happy with the results.
 
Wolf

edwardofhuncote

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F1-X with Crown Drivecore XLS1000
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2015, 03:46:23 AM »
I went ahead and bought these two cabs... based on new price, it was a good enough deal that I shouldn't have much trouble flipping them locally if they don't work out. They should be here later this week, maybe in time for next weekends gigs. =)
 
Reckon I'll need a little advice on the best way to connect all this... F-1X to power amp, and then out to speakers. I see where some of you have used a TRS to XLR cable getting from pre-amp to power-amp. Since these cabs come with both Speakon and 1/4' connections, I guess the choice is mine to make on that.

cozmik_cowboy

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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2015, 06:52:45 AM »
Reckon I'll need a little advice on the best way to connect all this
 
I've always found wires work best......
(nyuk nyuk)
 
Peter (Who ofttimes just cannot help himself)
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

bigredbass

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« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2015, 10:32:06 PM »
Gregory, I made just a quick look at the XLS manual online, and it looks simple enough:
 
These amps don't do the trick where you can plug into one channel and it feeds into both.  So . . . I'd make sure the crossover is turned off in the XLS, and I'll leave the onboard compression up to you.  You're running two 8-ohm cabs which makes a 4-ohm load, so it's simple.  
 
Put the XLS in bridge mode (which it conveniently operates at both 8- and 4-ohms, nice).  Come out of the full range output on the F1X into the channel it asks for in Bridge mode ( I don't remember . . . . ), then out of the amp into one cab, and daisy into the second from the first.
Short 1/4 guitar or signal cable from pre to amp, and then whatever you want to use for the speakers.  As always in a rack, the shorter the better, and this eliminates worrying about balanced / unbalanced, and you want stout speaker cables.
 
Done.
 
Of course, you'll have the manuals and the goods in front of you so be sure and double check me, but just glancing at the available features and jacks, this seemed to be the way.  And as always with a power amp rig, always turn the power amp down at power-up and power-down until you get a feel for the relative levels between axe, preamp, and power amp.
 
Joey

edwardofhuncote

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« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2015, 09:55:49 AM »
Thanks Joey, I was hoping to get a chance to play with it some this weekend, have gigs tonight, tomorrow, and Sunday, but if we get the amount of rain here they're talking about, I'm guessing two of the three gigs will be cancelled, and the wedding reception truncated.
 
Ummm, suppose I wanted to use both the low-pass and high x-over outputs (rather than the full-range output) on the F-1X? Send one to each input on the amp? Sorry to be so inept... I know my way around the woodshop but am a dunce when it comes to this kind of stuff.

bigredbass

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« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2015, 11:29:10 AM »
Greg, the low- and high-pass outs are for bi-amping and driving those signals thru two (bi- . . .) amps, or the two sides of a single power amp, into cabinets for lows and cabinets for highs.
 
This sort of thing came about in the old days once people began to realize that Voice of the Theaters and Shure VocalMasters could NOT keep up with louder and louder bands in bigger and bigger venues, especially when back then a BIG power amp was 200 or 300 watts a side and the passive crossovers of the day would distort much more easily in the cabs.  Having to mic kick drums and bass REALLY drove this.
 
So we'd take an active crossover of some sort, run the lo-pass thru 15' or 18's with as much juice as we could get because those lows are what takes diesel-strength power to push, and run a small conventional cab or horn bins for the top, which typically took maybe 1/3 the power to be as loud.  Lot of rigs with DC300's for bass and D75's for highs.  It just takes more juice to push those long bass wavelengths.
 
Bass players jumped on this back in the day.  IF you weren't satisified with a big Acoustic or SVT, then you bought a bass preamp with or without a crossover, a power amp and a separate crossover if required, and lots of guys would push a folded horn or front loaded 18 or 15 for lows and 10's or 12's or 15's for highs.  Then you just added as many power amps as needed and off you went.  The cigar-box-sized, 1000 watt amps and Neo-cabs we have today were only dreams in the 70's.
 
Think about the two cabs you're buying.  A crossover circuit card inside those cabinets is dividing the incoming speaker wattage into the low-pass (the bass part of the signal) into the 12 woofer.  The remaining mids and highs are being sent to that 6 speaker.  This circuit card inside the cab is general called a 'passive' crossover, in that it's a fixed-value circuit.
 
On the F1X, the crossover is doing the same function, but since there are variable controls (the crossover frequency, and the hi freq level), this would be an 'active' crossover, inasmuch as you have control over some of the parameters.  
 
If you think about, say, a good computer audio system or the surround sound-type television rig, we see a subwoofer for the lows and smaller cabs for the highs.  This would be your basic '2-way' system where those dedicated cabinets split the sound into two into specific cabinets for their load.
 
So, on the F1X, for example, say you set the crossover on the front panel for 150hz.  At the back panel, the signal out of the lo-pass would only be 150hz and down and the hi-pass would be signal only from 150hz and up.
 
Commercial sound often begins this way, with flying concert sytems even tri- and quad- amped systems.  
 
With the amp and cabinets you're getting this won't work for bi-amping:  The Avatars have a full-range-only input.  
 
In other words, the inputs on the cabs would be marked hi-pass and lo-pass where you would be plugging those same signals from the F1X into each side of the XLS and passing thru to those inputs on the cabs.  One side of the XLS would drive the 12's and the other side would drive the 6's, IF the inputs on the Avatars allowed for this.  They don't.
 
The passive vs. direct crossover argument has raged for years, and in the good cases, passives can be fine:  Acme's range of cabs work just fine, for instance.  Generally, for most commercial sound, active crossovers rule.
 
To hear the difference vs. the full-range operation I mapped out previously, plug your bass into the F1X, and set the front panel crossover at 150hz.  Take the lo-pass out of the F1x and run into Ch A of the XLS(reset for normal stereo operation) and hook one Avatar speaker to that channel.  Repeat with the hi-pass into the XLS ChB and into the other Avatar.  Again, be SURE the crossover function in the XLS is turned OFF, or this will get REAL confusing ! The 'volume' knob on the F1X will control both of the outputs.
 
Do this a low or medium volume one channel at a time only and you'll hear the division immediately:  The ChA tone will be like organ pedals or the dead-est tape wounds you ever heard, and ChB will sound like an AM radio.  Combine them and you'll begin to get the idea.  A lot of times, in a biamp rig, most of your tone is just where the crossover happens, and how much high end you add or subtract volume-wise:  This is why the F1X smartly includes that 'HF Level' control, you just dial in as much hi-pass you want to suit.
 
Full-range cabs like you have are obviously not the preferred way to go for a bi-amp rig.  However, since you're almost there, it would be easy enough to add a single 15 Avatar (15 only, no hi-driver in the cab) and use it for the lo-pass and the 12 cab you have for the hi-pass.  Simple.
 
For the type of gigs you mention, the Avatars full range should work fine.  And later, if you join a metal band, you can just expand out from there !
 
I ran bi-amped rigs once or twice back in the day, and for LOUD stuff it was great, not so hot at reasonable levels.  I always wanted to try ELF, but probably won't get a round too-it.
 
Wolf or anybody else out there, what did I miss?
 
Joey
 
(Message edited by bigredbass on October 02, 2015)

edwin

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« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2015, 11:47:35 AM »
You could probably mod the Avatar for biamp input pretty easily. Just make sure you don't send the lows to the high frequency driver with any real amount of volume.
 
But, passive crossover technology has improved considerably over the years and amplifiers provide enough power to deal with the amount lost to the passive crossover. I used to biamp a lot, but don't bother anymore. That said, the F-1X crossover is a good one. I'd say it's only worth experimenting if you get another cab as Joey suggested.

keith_h

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« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2015, 11:52:30 AM »
 I always wanted to try ELF, but probably won't get a round too-it.
 
Joey,
Here's your opportunity to mark it off your  bucket list. My ELF subsystem is still for sale. I'd even deliver it to you. ;)
 
Keith

sonicus

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« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2015, 01:34:19 PM »
Joey , In your post 2469 regarding Bi-Amp history and application and use . I think you covered it swell . I used to Bi Amp but recently again I just run full range or full range Stereo on a Series instrument .  
 
 Wolf

bigredbass

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« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2015, 03:02:22 PM »
Keith, since my playing days are over, I could never justify it, but Thanks anyway.
 
I do have a question, though.  There's an ELF White Paper still posted on the BagEnd website, and it intimates that a very low levels, the bass is still very present, unlike a conventional biamp rig (which I found to be true).  Do you find this to be the case?
 
Joey

keith_h

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« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2015, 04:07:46 PM »
Joey,
You can't say you were never given the opportunity.  
 
I would say the bass it is still present. I've never really thought about it but when I play at volumes where you can talk the sound is still full. Overall I would say the system is one of the smoothest I've ever played through. Besides acting as a crossover the integrator also performs time alignment and musical limiting functions (what they call concealment). It is also much lighter than two 301's and two single speaker JBL K140's I used many years ago.  
 
One thing about the Bag End ELF stuff is it is well thought of in the home theater realm. When I refresh the listing for selling my subsystem I am going to list it in the home audio as well as instrument for sale section of Craigslist.  
 
Keith

bigredbass

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« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2015, 05:17:12 PM »
I appreciate it Keith, and IF I were still playing out, WHEN you delivered it, I'd cook and we'd have a large time (Damn, hand-delivered . . .).  Most of the time, I'm afraid the BRB and his green nephew do a lot of closet time . . . .
 
All the Best,
 
Joey

keith_h

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« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2015, 05:30:35 PM »
I hear you. I haven't played out in forever and what little I do other than for my own pleasure is for a neighbor friend who records backing tracks for local gospel singing groups. This is why I decided to start selling off a lot of the gear I've used over the years. Besides a little bit of cash there is the most important benefit that it makes my wife happy to see the clutter disappear.  
 
Keith

edwardofhuncote

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« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2015, 03:43:47 PM »
As usual, I've turned someone else's thread into an epic journey... (sorry Rob) but I really have gained a wealth of education here.  
 
I LOVE this F-1X into a power-amp, and I'm just now getting what all the amp itself will do. Just bridged in mono is pretty awesome, but this amp also has built in crossover setpoints... you can assign low or high pass points to either channel.  
 
I'm still playing around with Joey's suggested setup, bridged mono and daisy-chaining the 126's, but I have the strongest inclination to eventually put a low frequency only cab on channel 2.  
 
No disrespect to the folks in Petaluma, but it only took two days before I put my Mesa Scout mini-stack up for sale. I'll keep one Walkabout head and a Scout 15 cab for quick load-in/out, or upright gigs, but *this* is the clean sound I was looking for!  
 
Thanks Again Fellas!

elwoodblue

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« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2015, 04:11:11 PM »
yeehaw : )))
...love that journey.