Modifying the power supply

[JimmyJ]

Hey Flip,
 
You've cleaned up your DS-5 nicely but I'm not sure I've led you down the right electrical pathway...  (Remember, I don't really know what I'm talking about!)
 
To correctly operate in mono there should be THREE 20k resistors involved.  (Is there one more that we can't see wired into the jack/switch?)  You want one from your new input, one from pin 2 of the 5-pin connector and one from pin 3.  The other end of these resistors should then meet at the mono output jack.
 
In other words, as long as all three preamp outputs (your Series has two outputs, your Orion has one) are 20k away from your summed mono output, then they should all be happy.  If you shut off the Series bass, which essentially shorts the outputs, the Orion bass shouldn't be effected.
 
If there are only 2 resistors in your circuit I would think one of your Series outputs would appear suddenly louder than the other.
 
Furthermore, I'm not sure this wiring is going to work in stereo.  Although if I'm reading correctly, you only ever want the Orion to appear on that bass output jack, even if the Series is running in stereo?  If that's case you've almost got it, but may still need one more resistor to make the levels all match.  
 
If you wanted your newly added inputs to appear at both stereo outputs, that's a bit trickier.  I understand the concept of summing signals to mono - as I've been trying to describe - but splitting a mono signal to two outputs is a bit more complicated as far as resistor values, loading, etc...  I'd need to do some experimenting to see what worked.
 
At one time I had a rack piece I called the sum-thing which only did resistive summing.  Signals A+B from the bass were summed with the output of a stereo chorus (effect only when turned on).   Those two outputs drove the stereo power amp and speaker rig, and they were summed again to make a mono signal for the DI out.  Basically 4 to 2 to 1.  And to my surprise, it worked.  Ha!
 
You're wireless rig's output is also an active signal so that can be summed in the same way you're thinking, at least to mono...  Just watch out for added noise.
 
Hope I didn't make you do any unnecessary soldering!
 
Jimmy J

[FC Bass]

Thanx again :-)
 
No worries, there are three resistors. The third is on one of the switches on the Treble output (on its original location, out of sight in the pic)
 
The neck pickup is now always passing through a 20K resistor, not sure if that affects output/tone?  
 
So that's:
 
* Orion + Series mono - All signals summed with three 20K resistors to the bass output
 
* Orion + Series stereo - Bridge pickup straight to treble output, Orion and neck pickup summed with two 20K resistors to the bass output
 
* Series alone stereo - Bridge pickup straight to treble output, neck pickup passing through 20K resistor to the bass output
 
* Series alone mono - Bridge and neck pickup summed with two 20K resistors to the bass output.
 
Splitting the new input signal over both outputs could be trickier indeed, luckily for me its not what I need for now. :-)
Would be nice to have as a switchable option though?

[FC Bass]

Here's the third resistor:
 

 
I should have noted that the first pic in post #1870 only highlights the changes I've made.
Also added a ground wire, not sure if that's necessary.. (the input is grounded through the housing)

[JimmyJ]

Wow, did you have your trained ant take that picture?  That's a mighty fine close-up!
 
OK, this makes sense and  I'm glad it does what you need it to do.  I would say the only possible issue could be that in stereo you may have slightly altered the balance between the bridge pickup and the neck pickup (which always has the resistor in the signal path).  But that's pretty easy to compensate for with the rig - or even the individual pickup volumes on the bass.
 
Nice going!!
 
Jimmy J

[FC Bass]

Trained ants!  
 
Everything seemed to be working fine at the last rehearsals, there might have been a slight volume drop on the neck pickup when used stereo + the Orion. That could have been a sonical illusion though, I'll experiment  a bit more thorough asap.
 
Can't wait to implement this in the big rig, I have no emergency input currently and with the two extra inputs you can use three basses simultaneously. (did anyone say  Big bottom?)  
 
Keep fingers crossed for those noise issues...

[FC Bass]

All righty, did some experimenting :-)
 
Youtube link
 
This is where the max level indicator is located:
 


 
 
As you can see here, the difference between the Orion passing through the 20K resistor and the straight connection seems to be about 10dB:
 


 
 
Like our dear Jimmy noted, the difference can easily be compensated with the amp levels and the internal instrument gain settings.
 
Maybe it would be better to have the bridge pickup 20K resistor also hardwired? (like I did with the neck pickup)
Then we would also be just one step away from adding the extra input to the treble output?
Maybe I?m overthinking this, but I guess this could be done with an Isolation transformer?
 

[JimmyJ]

Here's my latest idea.  I'm gonna say it again; I could be wrong!  (I'm waiting for Mica to kick me out of here.  Ha!)
 
My funky drawing below is what I think would allow you to play in mono or stereo - with your extra inputs (front in and back in) summing to either the mono output or your two stereo outputs.  
 
The square box is a SPDT switch (we could probably figure out how to incorporate your existing 1/4 jack switch, or you could replace that with a standard jack and wire in a toggle).
 
With the switch in the lower position (as drawn) the rig runs in mono with all signals summing out of the bass/mono output (top right jack - sorry forgot to label it) with only one resistor in line with each source... Actually, now that I look at it, both output jacks would have the same mono signal...  
 
With the switch in the upper position the Series outputs still pass through resistors on the way to the bass and treble outs (in stereo), and your added mono inputs do the same - on the way to both the bass and treble outputs.
 
Again, I am not certain how this will effect levels - from your experiment you may loose 10db on everything...   But it should keep the instrument outputs from messing with each other.  And switching to mono cuts out 2 of the resistors from your new inputs so the value isn't halved.  Turn down the amp before you throw that switch!  Hmm, looking again, in stereo the two outputs are actually only 20k apart so not sure that's enough to not be kind of mono.  I still don't know enough.
 
So I urge you to experiment before you commit to soldering!  Find some test leads with alligator clips and a bag of 20k resistors and goof around.  Keep that amp turned down though!!
 
Jimmy J

[FC Bass]

Seems to work great Jimmy, you the man! Thanx!
 
I've tried this setup (minus the 2nd additional input) with the Roland recorder and with the Stereo rig setup, with everything connected it seems to work fine (great)
 
Quiky observation: When the 5 pin plug is removed from the Bass, the 1/4 input bleeds a little to the treble out (with the switch in the off position)
 
 
If Mica is reading: When will the DS 6 become available and can it be custom ordered from the mothership with this mod? (additional front and back 1/4 input)  
That would be completely awesome :-)

[FC Bass]

Btw: I also brewed together a portable powersupply, currently working with four 9V batteries. (like Alembic made for Mark King, Jason Newsted etc for using with wireless)
The two 1/4 outputs work the same way as on the old DS5 (switch in treble output)
 

 
Now I will try to find a way of cramping some kind of +/- 18V rechargeable power source in there (most likely will need a slightly larger housing) and it would be great if it could be charged through the 5 pin connector. (male 5 pin connector on the charger)  
Also might add a battery level indicator, there are some neat and tiny solutions for that.
 
I will start a separate thread when I've worked all that out :-)

[room037]

It's good idea, Flip !
 
If it will be rechargeable by 5 pin, it's a best way. It means no back panel access.
I made similar one (?}18V by four 9V batteries, stereo output and Master volume), but I don't use it now.
 
Please show me your project.
 
Eiji

[FC Bass]

I'm putting the rechargeable powersupply on hold for now, it can be done (maybe even in this housing) But I'll also have to build the charger from scratch, that is a bit more complicated...

The mod on the DS5 is kinda working, but still not optimal. The Series I is not 100% silent with the pickup selector in the standby position, there's a very faint signal bleeding through...

[FC Bass]

The inside of the 5 pin was loose (the connector on the bass) Fixed that and I think that was causing the problem with the Standby setting :-)

Mica did you see my mail with DS-6 question? (may 12 2016)

[FC Bass]

Thanx for the message Mica I'll send you a reply asap, have to explore some options first...
I've been offered to trade a DS5 for a DS5 R, so I might be ordering a new one (DS5) for the trade. :-)

I think I am going to remove the switch from my modified PS, it reduces the volume of the fretless on the amp that's on the Bass output. (so overall volume stays +/- the same) and it does "funny" things with the Series I signals (noticed yesterday the neck pickup bleeds slightly over to the treble output)

Here it is in action:



The "stereo" setup, SWR Bassic black for the bass channel and Laney Powered monitor for the treble channel:

[FC Bass]

I started a new topic about the big rig with this mod for the power supply here: Building the big rig :-)