Author Topic: Need more bottom end (Read 496 times)

hup · « **on:** June 16, 2003, 12:06:44 AM »

hey guys my rig is an ampeg b2r head with 2 x 410 ampeg cabs i know the 410's make it tight but i need more bottom end my bass is a spoiler 5 any help would be nice
cheers
hup
alemicise the world

rami · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2003, 09:17:46 AM »

Hi Hup,

I use an EDEN 210 & 410. I'm getting some serious seismic bottom end. Could your lack of bottom end be somewhere other than your speaker setup? Perhaps you could try a 15 or 18 cab if you need more Thump. You'll probably lose some of that great fast response though.

Good luck,

Rami

dean_m · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2003, 10:07:28 AM »

Hey Hup,
I use a very similar Ampeg rig to yours. What 4x10 are you using? (BXT, BS, HE...)
If it is the 4x10HE, then you are definately not getting enough boom. I know cause I use the same cabinets. The reason for that is that they are a sealed design. You do get more punch and definition out of them however you do sacrifice the bottom end. Their freq. response I believe is no lower than 48hz if I'm not mistaken. These are more of a close range cabinet to be used as a stage monitor with a PA support to fill the room. I have a very hard time filling a room with bass with these cabs. Don't get me wrong though, these are one of the best cabs that Ampeg makes, they're just not designed to be used in the way we're using them. Here are some suggestions that may help, and these will work with any 4x10.
You can always try to EQ more bass into your mix but again, you're trying to make the cabinet do something it wasn't design to do.

1. If your cabinet is on casters, take them off and place the cab directly on the floor or stage. This will allow the floor to couple with the cab and act as a bigger cabinet.

2. Alembic's SF-2 was designed with sealed cabinets in mind to enhance the bottom end of a sealed cab. Instead of mixing more bass into your mix, you're actually fooling the cabinet into thinking its a ported cab. Plus it makes a great addition in tone shaping possibilites.

3. If all else fails, you might need to consider a ported cabinet if you need to fill a room with only your rig and no PA support.

I hope this helps you out a bit. Let us know how you make out.
Peace,
Dino

hup · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2003, 04:38:41 PM »

thanks for your respose rami & dino, dino do you think i could port the cabs that i have myself or would that be a silly thing to do i just cant afford the sf-2 i would like to get one but the exchange rate to aussie dollars just kills me
cheers
hup
alembicise the world

dnburgess · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2003, 07:07:54 PM »

hup, by comparison the Acme Low-B cab.s (which are a ported 10 three way design) are down 3dB at 41 Hz and 6dB at 31Hz (the fundamental of your low B string). These are anechoic figures - so in the real world with floor coupling they're probably flat to 41Hz and down only 3dB at 31Hz.

Acme also build subwoofer models - which are essentially the same as the full range models but without the mid and high units.

They are available in Australia: www.acmebass.com.au

jaurigemma · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2003, 08:30:36 PM »

I am a proud owner of an Acme Low B-II 2x10 and 4x10. I used to play an SWR Triad (15, 10 , horn) but I am ready to sell it off. The Acmes are amazing. Check out my rig on the following link: http://club.alembic.com/Images/411/5019.html?1055819346

dean_m · « **Reply #6 on:** June 17, 2003, 06:07:27 AM »

Hey Hup,

I wouldn't try it, only because I don't what the outcome may be and you might just make the situation worse. One other thing that I think Rami mentioned was, to add a 15 to your rig. You could sell one of your 4x10 and replace it with a good 15 cab. That should help with teh bottom as well.
Good Luck!!!

Dino

dannobasso · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2003, 02:58:18 PM »

Hey why settle for the 15! Try an 18! I'm searching for a manufacturer who makes a 4ohm model other than the JBL MPro 18's I have for a PA. Bag End SWR etc. all have 8ohms at about 400 watts. More I say I NEED MORE!!!. I have a bag end 18 in a SWR cab ported. When i picked it up from a friend he said it was a special ohm cab. I can't remember what he said it was. Acme says that the 410 sub has the signature of an 18. Anyone ever try one? I have the 210 and a 310 Epifani. My band wants the 18 for the road rig. I have a custom 5 Excel on the way so I have to make prudent choices. Don't want to be short when the bill comes due! Any other helpful suggesstions would be.... well uh.... helpful. Oh BTY, I have a choice of my OSC PLX's for this 3402, 3002, 2402, 1602, also Crest LA 1201, FA 901, LA 901 to run the cabs.

dnburgess · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2003, 04:58:55 PM »

danno

I can't comment on 18s, but I had a 15 EV T-line and the bottom end of the Acme B1 (a single 10!)was superior in every respect. Can't wait for the B4 which should be arriving any day now.

David

jaurigemma · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2003, 09:37:47 PM »

David, you will love the 4x10! I got mine about a month ago, and immediately retired the Triad I cabinet that I had.

bigredbass · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2003, 10:08:50 PM »

I've always looked to the big sound companies to fill in the 'black art' of instrument cabinets, which often make no sense to me. I've always felt that when EAW and JBL start using 10's instead of 18's for subs and deep lows, I would too. I'm still waiting. Even in ELF, BagEnd only uses 10 subs for home theatre or studio monitors, though I know a few of these have shown up on stages.

I'm old enough to remember when 15's and 18's were the only thing we used for bass rigs. Yes, they needed a little more mid and top end. But NO ONE ever had these conversations I see again and again that 'I don't have enough bottom'. Even after the 8-10 SVT cabinet debuted, it wasn't until the 80's that 10s began to be a serious choice as a cabinet.

I've lately been very impressed with the Mesa VENTURE combo amp, with one 15 and a high driver.
I shouldn't be surprised that a Mesa product sounded that good, but it sounded so full after all these 10's. I'm waiting to try the same thing with (you guessed it) 2-10s and a high driver. I think it's also significant that Mesa offers it in both versions.

I also think my lessons from sound reinforcemt apply: The deep bass, in full tone and depth, is the root of the sound, and the hardest to get right. Then, smooth mids and musical highs are easier to add in. A lot of times the 10-only rigs seem to have mids galore, nasal highs from those damn Foster horns, and then . . . 'how can I get more bottom?' posts on the various forums.

J o e y

dean_m · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2003, 07:13:11 AM »

Ya know,

I have to agree and disagree with you on this Joey. I agree with you in the fact that some multi-10 cabs really don't offer the same sub-low end that some 15's and 18's offer. I have heard some 15's and 18's that really sound pretty awfull too though. On the other hand, I've heard some 4x10s that sound pretty awful as well. But, there are a number of 4x10s that sound amazing as well.
It does come down to a matter of physics, (a subject I don't know a lot about) but, the more bottom end you need, the more air you need to move. A good ported 4x10 can move just as much air as a good 15 or an 18 because the speaker surface area is about the same. The problem Hup is having is that his 4x10s are sealed so they're not moving as much air as a ported cab. I have the same cabs as he does, I think. My 4x10s are sealed too. I bought them because at the time, all I need to do was fill a good size stage and the PA would take care of the rest of the venue. Plus, and someone correct me if this is false, I was told that when you run an all tube head like an SVT, you need to push it through a sealed cabinet to get the sound pressure. I was told a ported cab wouldn't work as well.
I still think one of the best sounding cabs is Ampeg's Classic 410HE. The problem with it though is that once you get more than 20-25' away from it, the bottom disappears. Big problem when your trying to fill a room. They make a couple of great ported 4x10s but they're 100+ lbs.
Now in the area of some of these single 10 and single 12 cabinets, yeah I have to say, no matter how well they're designed, they're going to get buried in the mix against a loud Fender Twin or a hard hitting drummer. As far as filling a club without any PA support, it's not going to happen either unless you are moving some serious air.
I think you come from the same era as I do, remember when there was no such thing as PA support for the band? All the sound had to come from the stage!!!! Ah yes, massive stacks of SVTs. I do remember those days, so doesn't my chiropractor. LOL!!!
I am a big fan of multi 10 cabinets. I started with SVTs and moved to 2 4x10s only because they were easier to move. Now I'm getting to the point of not wanting to lug around the 4x10s either so my only hope is to maybe go to a 15 or hire a roadie.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents for what its worth. Any body have any suggestions on a killer 15 cab!!!

dnburgess · « **Reply #12 on:** June 22, 2003, 11:30:44 PM »

Joey

The reason PA companies still use 12 and 15 subwoofers may have more to do with economics than accoustics. They already have a massive investment in power amps - so to double or triple that for the sake of using smaller but less efficient drivers is not too appealing.

This is not as big an issue for an individual musician given the availability of relatively affordable kilowatt power amps.

I remember when upmarket domestic hifi speakers also had 12 or 15 woofers. But these days it is very unusual to find top end hifi gear with woofers bigger than 10 - usually they are smaller. For extra grunt more drivers rather than bigger drivers are added.

David B.