Bass Guitar Frequencies and Speakers

[poor_nigel]

I look at all the new rigs out and most seem to be lots of 10 and 12 speakers with little quacker horns in them.  Explore this URL:
http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
Note that an E string's frequency (E1) is 41.2 Hz.  A B string (B0) is 30.87 Hz.  I have been checking out the new speakers out there and the best 12s I can find go down to 45 Hz (4 voice coils and large, ferris magnets).  These will not even truly produce an E1, much less a B0.  
Point = Why do I seem confused on why everyone seems to want 10 and 12 speakers?  I am obviously missing something here.  Am I missing the ones that go in Ashdowns and Edens, which really do go that low?  When you gang four or eight together, do they really extend down to the freqencies needed to faithfully produce the lower notes, or it is just the style to crank up the mid-range and skip the really low notes?
I am very open to anyone's knowledge and opinions on what is going on with the newer amps out there.
Note:  I use 18 JBLs that go down to 30Hz, when paired together, for playing the lows of my five string through.  

[bassman10096]

I'm interested in any feedback to your question as well.  I'm still looking for good low frequency response, and have ordered a 5 string Alembic (so I'm looking seriously!).  
Here's my state of the art understanding:  Apart from the Edens and other high end 10 inch cabinets that presumably perform well for low f due simply to superior quality, I think I've heard two other general approaches:
 
1.  Acmes (which were designed specifically for low B application), where the 10 in speaker design is altered for a stiffer cone and greater excursion, making the speaker act more like a piston and allowing less cone distortion.  The cabinetry is also super nonresonant.
2.  Bag End ELF series, where specially designed speakers (10 to 18) are in sealed cabinets and fed by a special, rack mounted crossover unit that also does other things (?).  Here the 10 are touted as every bit the subwoofer as a normal 18.  The low frequency number for these is 18 Hz.  
 
I am a neophyte.  Others have spent considerable time discussing these issue in other threads, but I could stand more info and feedback from others who use these and other speakers.  
 
Bill

[willie]

nigel
the diameter of a speaker cone and its mass have a big influence on the frequencies it can reproduce. larger speakers produce lower frequencies better, they move slower and can move more air. smaller speakers like 10's can produce higher frequencies better because with less moving mass they can move faster and react to transients quicker and that gives them more punch. in my opinion its best to use a combination of driver sizes so that you can accurately reproduce the whole range of the bass without distortion. my 4x10 cabinets are edens and they sound great alone run full range but i still get a better overall sound if i bi-amp them along with 1x15 cabinets that way each driver only has to reproduce the frequency range that it can handle the best without distortion.
some people are fine with just 15's but it depends on the tone you are after. its the same reason your home stereo speakers have different size drivers, the sound is divided by a cross over and then sent to appropriate driver. if you only use 18's and you pop a G or C string its not going to sound as good as it would if you also had 10's and a compression horn because the 18's cannot reproduce that frequency without distortion, but a rig with a crossover, different size drivers and enough power amp headroom will sound incredible no matter what note you hit especially at extreme volume levels
it doesn't matter how many 10's you have , it doesn't alter the frequency resonse of the speakers themselves , but it will sound louder and deeper because the human ear doesn't hear low frequencies as good as higher ones so the increased volume from more drivers may give the impression that the sound is deeper but its not because the speakers are producing any lower frequencies they are just producing the same ones louder and compensating for the uneven response of our ears
willie

[fmm]

It does seem to me that increasing the number of drivers in close physical proximity in an array does improve the low frequency response of the speaker array.
 
Back in the 70s we used cabinets built by Mitchell speakers (long since gone out of business).  Each cabinet had 8 x 3.5 speakers; I think they were copies of the Bose 800 series.
 
By themselves (one on each side of the stage) their bass response was not good (as you would expect).  If you stacked two on top of each other the bass response would improve.  If you stacked 4 cabinets the response improved noticeably.
 
According to Mitchell's literature, every time you doubled the size of the stack bass response improved by 3 dB.  I recall seeing pictures of stage setups with 4 stacks 16 cabinets high on both sides of the stage as the only front-of-house cabinets.
 
It's probably more practical to increase your low frequency response by adding a 15 or two than by adding another 4 x 10 cabinet (or three...).
 
I still have a pair of the Mitchells.  They had a lifetime warranty, and I'm sure that's what killed the company.  Their efficiency at low frequencies is not good (as you would expect) but they're not bad for mids & highs.  I used to use them in a bi-amped setup, sometimes using a CS-800 to drive a pair of them and another CS-800 for the lows.  Now they are relegated to use as stereo speakers in my teaching studio while my home brew 2 x 10 EV cabinet handles the upper end.

[willie]

i think i read somwhere about the greatful deads wall of sound which i believe was designed by alembic that they stacked about 14 cabinets on top of each other each with a 15 jbl loaded in it on each side of the stage. the reason being that the wavelength of an open E string is over 30 ft tall so if the system producing that signal is as tall it will project that signal much better. i,m sure there are some folks in here that will know alot more about that system than i do so hopefully they help out

[bassman10096]

For those with an interest in the Dead's 1970's Wall of Sound system, check it out here:  http://www.dead.net/cavenweb/deadfile/newsletter19wallsound.html.

[dnburgess]

Nigel
The performance (including bass extension) of a speaker system is a function of much more than the size of the drivers. Cabinet design (especially porting), cabinet construction, crossover design, physical layout, number of drivers, etc will all influence the ultimate performance.
 
Its interesting to look at high end hi-fi - which appears to have been the subject of far more design expenditure and effort than instrument speakers. About 25 years ago Infinity established what has become one of the dominant ultra high end speaker paradigms with the IRS, which was a three way system with 6 x 12 woofers in a tower and low end response down to 15Hz. http://oellerer.net/infinity_classics/IRS/body_irs.html
 
Now days most high end speakers use one or more 10 or smaller woofers in a three way design with low end response to 30Hz or better. (There are, of course, notable exceptions.)
 
Three way systems (i.e. separate bass, mid & treble) appear to have evolved as the best compromise between improvements due to optimising the speaker for the band it is covering and problems arising from crossovers, etc.
 
This approach has permeated the instrument field with manufacturers such as Acme and Accugroove who take an adiophile approach to instrument speakers. But there is an enormous amount of history / fashion / inertia / ignorance / disinformation influencing marketing and purchasing decisions. (Does anybody really like the sound of a piezo tweeter?)
 
The truth is out there.

[alemboid]

I know Accugroove has a 21 sub cabinet out now. One of those, or heaven preventing-two of those plus a 4x10 with a decent tweeter would probably be enough to move serious earth.  
 
If you are like me, I'd love to have this capability in a box measuring 15x12x18 tall-with 120 dbl efficiency and 22 lbs weight. Did I mention concert hall volume levels?  
 
It's tough. Keeping in mind the more complex your system is, the greater risk for malfunction. In the big picture, the audience in the end hears your bass through the PA from your DI out anyway. So, there is something to be said for simplicity, component quality and an ally at the sound board.
 
My home stereo speakers are planar flat panels. They are about an inch thick, and around 5 feet tall. Sound quality is jaw dropping, but in no way suitable for bass guitar sound pressure levels. My point is that there is an application at about every level in audio. For now, Acme, Bergantino, EA, Eden, Bag End, Ampeg etc. are making great cabs. There is a subtle difference in each, and what sounds best to the user is the best way to go. Unfortunately, depending on your needs, size may be an issue in the end. For me, I've tried almost all, including making my own cabinets ranging from 2x10's to giant 15 folded horn bass bins. I bought and sold Bag End cabinets, only to come back to buying them again. They don't reach as low as some, but in the end, they are the most musical of the cabinets I've used. I'd say the Acme cabs are nice, too.  
 
Forums like this are great, as it helps educate the buyer! No doubt, speakers are important. It's the way we immediately hear ourselves, so the most accurate product to our ear is what we should use. Only you can be the judge. Now I wanna go play bass. See ya-
 
Bryant

[poor_nigel]

I checked out the Acme speakers, and was a bit dismayed that they lost 6 db at 30Hz.  Since every 3 db is double the volume, this is a significant loss.  I have known for 35 years never to play live bass through audiphile speakers, unless they belong to someone you really dislike.  I have been hoping someone would put out high quality bass speakers with kevlar cones, large voice coils, alnico or rare earth magnets that would run efficiently, like old JBLs do.  I believe I will just stick to my 18s and 15s for bottom, and use as many 12s, 10s, and 2 horns for mids and highs as necessary for when I am playing around.  I have dollies and hand trucks and a truck for hauling it all around.
 
Polk put out some woofers with kevlar cones that are tiny and just blow me away with their low end.  However, I like my friend that owns them, so I will never play a bass through them.  I believe the reason no one has really put out high-end speakers for playing is that the market probably would not bear it.  Cobalt used to be much cheaper in the 40's through 60's than it has become.  I don't know of too many musicians willing to pop the $3,000 to $10,000 quality audiophile speakers cost, for a cab or two to play through.  Even JBL has cheapened their line with feris (ferus?) magnets and aluminum voice coils, paper instead of cork. as that is what the market demands.  As far as speakers go, it seems upgrading these days is not really so, in fact.  Electronics are a much different story, however.  I'll stick to the inconvenience of large, heavy boxes to move around, cause I love the sound they produce.  Then again, I am open to something new, if it can cut it.
 
Now to go check out those 21' woofs!  

[dnburgess]

The Acme's are -3dB at 40Hz and -6dB at 30Hz. Bear in mind that is an anechoic measurement. Unless your gigs are in an anechoic chamber you will, if your speakers are on the floor, get some loading from the floor which means that the perceived performance on the B string is pretty good - certainly better than many more expensive bass guitar speakers.
 
(Its worth noting that the Acme's are designed to roll off very steeply below low B - so they'r not really suitable for detuned 5 & 6 strings.)
 
There are many Acme fans on Talkbass - some of whom even know what they're talking about.

[alemboid]

kevlar cones, large voice coils, alnico or rare earth magnets...you've described Euphonic Audio cabinets to a T. I find their boxes a bit dry and sterile. I am curious about the Neodymium magnets, as they do save weight over the ferrous type.  
 
I think I've learned my lesson. The hi-fi cabs are ok, but for me, Bag End speakers have decent lows, low mids, mids, hi mids and highs, are efficient, sound great cranked and are really reliable. If I can stop buying/trying speakers, I could afford that burled cocobolo custom series 2 5 string!!!! (lol!)
 
Bryant

[alemboid]

kevlar cones, large voice coils, alnico or rare earth magnets...you've described Euphonic Audio cabinets to a T. I find their boxes a bit dry and sterile. I am curious about the Neodymium magnets, as they do save weight over the ferrous type.  
 
Word up on those large, heavy boxes. When the sound is right, why fix what's not broken?
 
I think I've learned my lesson. The hi-fi cabs are ok, but for me, Bag End speakers have decent lows, low mids, mids, hi mids and highs, are efficient, sound great cranked and are really reliable (heh, sounds kind of, er, hi-fi). Again-my drummer and I get the benefits. The audience gets the soundman's interpetation of what sounds right for bass in the mix (kind of disturbing)-I've had bassist/friends come to shows to kindly help the soundguy-not just for bass, but for overall balance.  
 
If I can stop buying/trying speakers, I could afford that burled cocobolo custom series 2 5 string!!!! (lol!)
 
Bryant

[poor_nigel]

Follow-up on Accugrove Speakers.
They are using Beyma speakers, which are a Portugal speaker company (I am assuming this, as their site gives a choice of English and Portuguese).  You can buy them raw at http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2021L50-1.htm  (They carry a lot of them, not just the 21 that seems very interesting).  
It seems a few speakers at the US Speakers site are using neodymium magnets.  It is an interesting tour for checking what is currently on the market.  The Professional speaker part of the Beyma site is still under construction.  Patience boy, patience.  
It is obvious that I have had my head in the sand for too long on the new technology of speakers out there.  Maybe speaker technology for professional applications did not die with the 60's.
Money talks - The 21 Beyma woofs are listed at US Speaker for close to $1,200 each.  I hope this is retail, as I cannot see them being worth more.  I am pretty happy with my small, distilled collection of basses, so I would gladly pop $1,600 for a pair of these puppies to play around in my shop with.  
Of an interesting note at the US Speakers site is a pair of 12 P. Audio TM SERIES woofers that I cannot quite figure out.  I am sure I would blow them up in bass bins, so  . . . .

[David Houck]

Beyma appears to be located in Moncada, Valencia, Spain.

[palembic]

Yep Dave, Valencia Spain it is.
Just by coincidence I have to change the woofers (12) of my home stereo system (I didn't do so yet). It appears to be Beyma's. I went to a store here in Antwerp and the guy rated them VERY high and ...expensive.
 
Paul the bad one