Author Topic: Signal path quandry (Read 437 times)

ezra · « **on:** February 27, 2004, 02:40:32 PM »

Hello everyone, I'm a newbie to the club but not to alembic. I owned a series 1 in 1975 which was stolen, and replaced it in '76 with a new series1. I know, pictures, pictures. I promise they will be forthcoming, but first things first. I'm putting a new rig together and need some help/ advice on signal path. OK here goes. First off I want to run in stereo. Equipment is as follows: DS5R, F2B, SF2, Korg DTR 2000, Alessis midiverb, QSCPLX3402, running into 2 Accugroove El Whappos. Appreciate any and all comments.

Thanks!
Ezra

hollis · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2004, 03:32:40 PM »

Those speakers look dangerous!

Welcome to the club!

You asked for any and all comments....soooo, here goes. The Alessis seems like it might be an Achilles' Heel (not a bad little unit, but somewhat out-classed by the rest of the rig). Don't get me wrong, the Midiverb is certainly adequate for many applications, I just feel that it lacks the warmth available from other reverb rack mounts....That being said, THAT IS ONE KILLER SYSTEM!

David Houck · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2004, 03:45:21 PM »

Hi Ezra, welcome to the group!

Sounds like a very nice rig. You should be able to keep it stereo (two channel) all the way through. If it were me, I would go DS5R, F2B, SF2, Alesis, QSC. I like having the preamp first to go ahead and get the tube warmth into the signal, then the SF2 to do final tone shaping, then the Alesis to wet the final signal. For the tuner I would run a cable from one of the extra inputs on the F2B (or perhaps the mono out) to the tuner input. That keeps the tuner out of the signal chain.

bassman10096 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2004, 04:04:00 PM »

Yeah, the speakers are what I'm salivating over! By and large, I think Hollis identified the only place I would even quesion. Though if I read right, you putting together a new rig. Are you unhappy with any of the components now? I'd be especially curious about your feedback on the Whappos, since they are on my short list at the moment. Your description of sound, volume compared to high-end, hifi 410's and any other observation would be appreciated.

(And, of course, pictures, pictures!)

Welcome to the Club. If you haven't been reading-in on the Club for a while, this is a really good collection of people, without many of the bad habits seen on most other boards. I hope you'll get the feedback you are looking for from a wide variety of viewpoints on your question.

Bill

palembic · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2004, 11:59:03 PM »

Brother Ezra (mmmm...THAT sounds nice),

welcome to the club!
I keep my big mouth shut about those pictures but still ...maybe ...once ...if you have a camera ...please???
I follow Dave in his set-up. My rig's path is about the same principle only I work with teh F1-X in bi-amp. BTW: the Lexicon effect are with me only over the high signal just before the input to Power Amp.

Paul the bad one

PS: there are great people in this club. Be friendly for the weird talking ones ...they are Elfs!

bracheen · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2004, 05:52:35 AM »

Ezra and Bill, I seem to remember someone else mentioning using the El Whappos recently. I recall because the name was so cool. Anyway maybe a search of topics might shed some insight to them.

Welcome to the club Ezra. I hope you enjoy your time hear. The preemptive Pictures, pictures strike was impressive.

Sam

bassman10096 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2004, 08:18:05 PM »

Thanks Sam. I did search and found several references and individuals using Accugroove speakers. Other than some very complimentary comments on the Tri 12, there was little in the way of info and impressions on the El Whappo or the other models. I will be talking to Bass Central this week to get more info, since they are carrying the Accugroove line. The El Whappos are definitely a big investment for a single cabinet, and not light to move. On the other hand, they are reputed to carry the same kind of punch you'd pay about the same to build in many other high end lines. At that point, the single cabinet (as opposed to moving a 410 + some other woofer cab) is not as daunting. I'm still leaning in the direction of 2 Acme B210's for ease of moving (Don't always have to take both/can always add a third if needed, but then the cost climbs into Accugroove territory).

I think one of the other appeals of the Whappo is that it relies on a 15 for deep bass and includes a 12 for mid bass. I'm just a throwback at heart - You know: bass speakers MUST be big!). Unless I completely lose it and try the Whappo first, I'll probably get the chance to try out the 210 Acmes and see if speaker technology has really advanced enough to put me at rest about getting enough deep bass.

But enough of that, what about Ezra's quandry?

Bill

bkbass · « **Reply #7 on:** February 29, 2004, 08:22:50 AM »

I had a chance to play through an el whappo using a triple omega w/signature electronics going through a eden wt800 head.I found the sound to be clear and open,a little sterile in the lows with tweeters that didn't seem to be on the leading edge of the note(no spitting}.Overall it sounded very,very close to a bi-amp rig in mono.My suggestion to you would be to look at more frequency separation between the two cabinets.ie:a tri-112 for highs and mids and a el gordo for the lows and lower mids(check out the specs for a sub it goes pretty high).It seems to be a waste of money to have a cabinet for the lows that is cable of reproducing all those highs and mids that your never going to hear on the low end.Now that is just my useless opinion.Near me,the only dealer for accugroove is getting full list price for the cabinets!Does anybody know of a dealer with any kind of discount on these?Also the crossover inside the cabinet(el whappo)does not have the provision to bi-amp a single cabinet.As I comparison in the three way cabinet arena check out Bag End's AF-1 cabinets(remember Andy West's rig with the Dixie Dreg's?He used it with an alembic back then.4 cabinets I think.) they include a high freq horn,12mid and a 18woofer and it can be bi-amped.Also,going just by list prices el whappo @ $2,300.00 vs AF-1 @$1,800.00(road version).The accugroove is approx 38 tall the bag end is 44 tall but has wheels and handles in a hand truck fashion with a hard snap in panel to protect the drivers.PLUS you can get a discounted price just about anywhere Leaving you more moola for the next Alembic LOL!

bassman10096 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 29, 2004, 10:53:47 AM »

Thanks for the thorough review, Barry!! Interesting thoughts on alternatives, too. Your point about cramming both low and high specialty drivers into on cab make sense. I haven't found a dealer willing to discount Accugrooves either (though I haven't talked to BassCentral, yet). I did not realize the Whappo was not biampable, either (just assumed it would be - far less expensive cabinets are.)

I'll check out the Bag Ends today. BTW, I grew up in NJ - Ridgewood ('72) and lived in Passaic and Wallington (during the Parcells Giant years).

Thanks again.

Bill

poor_nigel · « **Reply #9 on:** February 29, 2004, 03:46:05 PM »

Hey Boyz. When ya want a discount, always check on eBay. El Whappos are going for $1,400 new and some guy is selling ones he calls collector's items for $1,300. Just use Accugroove for the search.

bassman10096 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 29, 2004, 06:30:13 PM »

Found em. Thanks Nigel. That certainly puts a new wrinkle to things...

Bill

dnburgess · « **Reply #11 on:** March 01, 2004, 02:05:35 AM »

Bill

Bear in mind that the Acme Low B-2s are down 6 dB @ low B (approx. 31 Hz). That's better than all the Accugrooves except the El Whappo which weighs 98 lbs and lists for $2043 vs the Acme's 50 lbs and $480. With two B2s you've got about the same weight but half the price - and its a super versatile set up. Take one to small gigs (up to, say, 150 seats), two to bigger gigs. Stack em vertically on end to create a bass line array. Use 'em as a mini PA in a pinch. Why they'll even darn your socks and make coffee. Ooops, got a bit carried away...

David B.

bassman10096 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 01, 2004, 04:22:41 AM »

David: For exactly the reasons you mentioned, I'll probably try the Acmes first. If I need even more heft, a third Low B2 would work (might take a little creative daisy-chaining to get the impedances right). In the end, as long as they don't leave streaks when they wash the windows or leave any of the white stuff I hate when they wax my car, all other things equal, the Acmes are probably much more the deal I'm looking for.

One question, though: What would you be driving at by stacking the cabinets on end? Thanks for your thoughts on all this.

And congrats on the new Alembic - It was you who bought it, right?

Bill

811952 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 01, 2004, 05:43:05 AM »

Stacking so that the speakers are in a line vertically gives you a non-directional array in the horizontal plane, because they will all be in phase. Lining them up side-by-side makes them directional in the horizontal plane, because of phase cancellation/interaction. Think of it in terms of time-alignment, if you will. The vertical array maintains the drivers at approximately the same distance from any point in front or off to the side, whereas the horizontal array puts the speakers the same distance only if you're directly in front of the array and staggers them incrementally greater distances from any point off to either side. I.E., you'll hear them great if you're in front of them, but won't if you're off to either side. To test this, play a cd through a mono P.A. system and walk from side to side and listen to the flanging sound as you move...
John the audio/physics lay-person

bassman10096 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 01, 2004, 06:03:37 AM »

Thanks, John. That makes perfect sense. I'll try it and hopefully the sound kinetics don't threaten to topple the stack (I like a LOT of deep bass!). Perhaps using the optional pole mount sockets I can secure them better.

Bill