Author Topic: Alembic History Research Assistance Request (Read 732 times)

s_wood · « **on:** January 05, 2016, 06:11:19 AM »

Because I apparently have nothing better to do I dived into a thread over on Talkbass about which company was the first to put the BEADG five string bass into regular production. We all know that Jimmy Johnson's Series I 5 string, built in 1976, was the first BEADG 5, but it was a custom job.

The 1977 Alembic catalog which makes no mention of the 5 string. The 1981 Alembic catalog lists the 5 string as a standard model. Does anybody have Alembic catalogs from 1978, 1979 or 1980 and if so do they mention or fail to mention the 5 string as a standard model.

Thanks for your help!

edwardofhuncote · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2016, 08:24:11 AM »

I saw that TalkBass thread and commented on Jimmy Johnson's long-lost 76 AC 418. (which I had assumed was a Series II, but may in fact have been a Series I with master vol...?)

The thread seems to have derailed a bit, but it has been an interesting read at several points.

Somewhere here, I remember reading and JJ himself told me, his Dad had come up with the idea of the low B for upright bass.

It'll be interesting too, to see what this board comes up with as to the origin of 5-string basses.

mica · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2016, 09:25:12 AM »

Once something is available here, it's available, regardless of our sporadic catalog publishing history (photo shoots were/are expensive). An old price list will probably be a better indicator, since they were photo copies. It's a real dig to unearth those old documents here, but when I run across something I'll be glad to share. Someone here (Flip? Eiji?) may have something already in their collection from that time.

Yes, Greg, it was Jimmy's dad's idea. But the bass wouldn't have been made at all if GHS hadn't agreed to make the strings for it, so they should really get some credit in the story.

moongerm · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2016, 10:12:52 AM »

FWIW (according to what has been published) there is also the first six string bass with the low B idea supposedly coming from Anthony Jackson? Carl Thompson made the first extended range 6 string bass with the low B commissioned by Anthony. Anthony had the idea in 74 for bass guitar and the bass was made in 75, around the same time Carl made the first piccolo bass for Stanley. Carl had to convince Attila Zoller to make a 6 string pickup and Addario to make a low B. http://www.ctbasses.com/index.php?f=bbook

I had no idea until 2013 when I educated myself and became familiar with Alembic and its very rich history including the 1st 5 string for Jimmy Johnson. So cool!

Love reading (and seeing) the history that surrounds these ground breaking instruments. Looking forward.

StephenR · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2016, 10:59:25 AM »

The following is a nice and informative interview with Anthony Jackson about his involvement and quest in the search for a contrabass guitar.

http://www.melvinleedavis.com/images/Contrabass%20Conception.pdf

Definitely get Mica's point about once it is available here it is available. Considering how many custom options have always been offered by Alembic it is hard to consider any Alembic as representing a standard model. To me regular production would refer more to which instrument manufacturer was the first to offer a stock five-string (or six-string) model to be sold in the corporate chain music stores like Sam Ash.

Personally I would like to read about the history of strings and pickups used for early multi-string basses. Most of the early five- and six-string basses were primarily four string basses with an extra string, or strings, added despite a few early unsuccessful attempts at modifying scale length and string spacing. Took a number of years before both luthiers and players had a better idea of how to best design and spec a bass intended to have more than four strings.

lbpesq · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2016, 11:13:50 AM »

Early multi-string basses included the Danelectro UB-2 in the mid 50's, soon followed by the Fender VI. Fender introduced the fist 5 string in the mid 60's, though this one added a C above the G string rather than the B below the E.

Bill, tgo

s_wood · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2016, 11:36:34 AM »

To clarify, I agree with Mica that old price lists are the best indicator of whether an instrument was intended for a market much wider than the original buyer. By 1981, the 5 string was in the price list. I'm trying to figure out when it might have first showed up there.

By the way, I found the 1981 Alembic pricelist here:
http://www.vintaxe.com/menu_catalogs_electric.php

It costs $10/month to access their huge database of scanned catalogs from guitar and amp makers. Thousands of them! I won't re-up after this month, but it's been fun banging around there. Lots of Alembic stuff from 1974 onward.

ed_zeppelin · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2016, 02:31:05 PM »

I'm going with Gasparo Da Salo for the first 5-string bass, in 1562:

He deserves an honorable mention, at least. Besides, he had to make his own strings (from sheep's intestines, because catgut strings were never made from cats), a process that required over a hundred steps at the time. That took ... well, you know.

You can buy plans for his six-string bass from the Ashmolean museum in England:

JimmyJ · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2016, 07:03:09 PM »

Good stuff!

I figure that Fender V from the '60's would have to be the first production 5-string electric bass - if that's the question. But as pointed out it was a high-C string. And even funnier, it had only 15 frets so the range was exactly the same as a P-bass. Clearly it was built for singers who didn't want to have to look down at the neck to change positions. Ha!!

My dad eventually switched to a 5-string orchestral bass. He got tired of operating the machine low-C extension. Trick there is one more angle to get used to for bowing. I imagine that's why Gasparo's 6-string didn't catch on.

Those mid-70's were creative times! Not that it's a contest or anything but I generally give Anthony the credit for being first to go low with his 6-string contra-bass guitar concept. Mostly, I'm such a fan of his playing and TONE that I'd rather say he came up with it. We may have had nearly simultaneous brainstorms! Interesting idea in the TalkBass thread that the new synth sounds may have driven the need for extended range. I can't say that was consciously my reason but what we were hearing on records at that time must have played a roll.

76-418 was my first 5-string (a Series ! w/MV) so it was completed in '76, and maybe late in the year. I cannot remember when I ordered it. I did own a 4-string Series I for a short time in '75 and the revelation that Alembic could build anything, combined with the inspiration from my dad, is what sent us on the range-extending quest.

I think GHS was offering custom gauges at that moment and the .120 was being sold as a heavy E-string. So combined with the standard medium Boomers set (45-65-85-105-120) and the fact that I don't play very hard with my right hand, made it just barely work.

Best to all!
Jimmy J

bigredbass · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2016, 10:15:32 PM »

I've read interviews with Doug Wimbish and Nathan East that they remarked that the five would let them double the synth bass lines that were becoming common on 70's disco and moreso the 80's synth-pop records, and keep them working.

You have to remember that as synths and sequencers and MIDI grew more and more controllable in those days, there was a certain concern in the bass and drum communities that we might indeed, be put out of business by the Linns and TR Boss products. And as the DX7 and that whole wave of much better synths came along in the early 80's, at times it was palpable. More than a few hit records had that big, fat MiniMoog bass.

Over time, in dawned on folks that a good drum machine would do, but it would do MUCH better if it were programmed by a real drummer. Same with key bass, and I even doubled in a few bands for a few tunes back then.

The first 'off the rack' five I remember seeing ads for was the 1st-gen Yamaha BB5000. By the mid 80's, lots of brands offered them, but they were still a bit exotic. Lots of guys dove in headfirst just to get those few extra low notes: I'm sure most of those are still under a bed or in a closet somewhere, after it dawned on them it's a hard row to hoe to completely learn another instrument just so you can play low C and D, just the wrong approach, but who knew ?

Joey

cntrabssn · « **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:01:03 AM »

I was able to dig up a price list from 1979. 5, 6, and 8-string bass models are listed. All were available in short, medium and long scale, and they were priced at $2300, $2400 and $2600 respectively.

-nate.

(Message edited by cntrabssn on January 06, 2016)

edwardofhuncote · « **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2016, 04:05:11 AM »

I figured this thread would be a good one. As often happens over on TB, some guy found himself a hill to die on, and the best parts of the discussion are overwith. But in here, we got to hear directly from not only the guy who played it, but the people who built it for him.

I'm off to do my own Anthony Jackson case-study.

s_wood · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2016, 06:17:27 AM »

Someone who read this thread sent me this:

I saw your question about Alembic 5 string bass production on the Alembic site. I am not a member of the site, but I do regularly read posts.
I have an Alembic Dealer Price List dated January 21, 1977, that has 4 / 5 / 6 / 8 string basses listed. The A5LB / A5MB and A5SB (long / medium / short scale) basses were all listed at a retail price of $1,800.00 ($50.00 more than the 4 string basses).

That's really fascinating to me, because it suggests that Alembic and others quickly realized that Jimmy Johnson's BEADG experiment was worthy of repetition! I wonder how many five string basses Alembic made in 1976? As discussed in other threads there was a 5 string with a '76 serial number that poppoed up for sale somewhere, but the peghead and serial number were different than those on Jimmy Johnson's bass. That suggests that at least one other five string was made in 1976.

(Message edited by s_wood on January 06, 2016)

(Message edited by s_wood on January 06, 2016)

edwardofhuncote · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2016, 06:27:52 AM »

There is another Series I 5-string, made within a couple #'s of Jimmy's... I want to say 76-42X or so. IIRC, it shares the same fan headstock as 418. Eiji's collection maybe? I *know* it's here somewhere... will hunt around in a few minutes.

I have become quite the nerd for this kind of minutiae! =)

*bingo - found it. [link

(Message edited by edwardofhuncote on January 06, 2016)

(Message edited by adriaan on January 06, 2016)

s_wood · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2016, 06:52:21 AM »

I am walking on that same geek road, Edward!

I first became interested in the fiver because my first instrument was bass clarinet. The standard bass clarinet's lowest note is Eb, but many professional players use an instrument with an extension that extends the range a third lower, down to C (2 octaves below middle C). Being a kid, I quickly concluded that bass instruments with their range extended downward were cool. So, when I saw my first five string bass I was hooked!