Author Topic: Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.  (Read 493 times)

longhorncat

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 516
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2006, 08:33:37 PM »
An example of a very stable and excellent sounding Kubicki Ex Factor neck:

bigredbass

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3032
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2006, 08:54:43 AM »
David:
 
Did I once read that one of the objects of graphite construction was that the stiffness raised the internal resonances way past audible hearing, eliminating dead spots, say the classic dead B on the Dstring up around the 9th or 10th fret region?  If so, did they think of this first or discover it later?
 
J o e y

adriaan

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4318
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2006, 09:02:41 AM »
I know the Kubicki necks are supposed to be multi-laminate - but that really looks like a single piece of very straight-grained wood to me (with a grain enhancer of some sort).

dejan

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 57
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2006, 12:49:52 PM »
I love graphite necks.The sustain and the clearity of each single note are incredibles.I've owned a Zon Legacy Elite 6 for a long time,and that bass has the best low B i've never heard!I admit that the feeling and the beauty of the wood is fantastic,i've never played instruments with ebony in the neck laminates and I'm sure that they sound great.Now my main bass is a Peavey BQuad4 that is a very bad bass,you must try to play a bass with piezo bridge and composite neck for Rock and slap.It would be nice if the Alembic return to use composite materials but I admit that They build fantastic instruments with the wood so....it's better They don't change!

jlpicard

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 416
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2006, 06:21:17 PM »
Mica has told me that Alembic will put graphite stiffening bars in the neck if you so desire.

trekster

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 161
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2006, 09:08:49 AM »
Ok, let's take this to another take on the original question:  Has Alembic ever done a neck that was one solid piece (non-laminated), and how would it compare?  
 
To my knowledge, the only company I know that does a 1 piece neck-thru is Rickenbacker's model 4004cII basses.  However, I have never played one, so I couldn't tell you if it is sonically better or worse.  It is a little like comparing a good quality orange to a good-quality apple, though.
 
--T

keurosix

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 453
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2006, 10:03:45 PM »
Well, this thread has gone slightly off the subject, but it hits a spot I can't resist to comment on. Joey, Yes, you are correct about graphite. The resonant frequencies are higher, way past even the normal harmonic notes sounded on the string, so says Modulus Graphite and others using graphite composite necks. I have an early Modulus Graphite Quantum TBX 5 string, 35 scale, neck-thru cocobolo / maple body that smokes. It started with 3 Bartolini P/U's and a Bartolini active preamp, but I wasn't excited about that, so I Activated it with a custom Alembic circuit. The combination of Graphite 35 scale neck thru and Alembic electronics is something to experience. I used this as my primary guitar for many years because the sound is hard to beat. The upper octave (12th fret & up) is so clean like a bell. No dead spots on this neck. The low B is spectacular, solid and true. Sounds like a grand piano. My 34 Europa low B doesn't compete. Sad but true. Go back and read 8 String King's input about ebony laminates. This is the only thing in wood that comes close to graphite, and so much better to look at - Plastic necks just look like plastic!
I think the ultimate neck would be ebony laminates alternated with maple and wenge and purple heart with 2 or 3 graphite strips under an ebony fingerboard. IMHO, I think the ebony fingerboard has a lot to do with the excellent sound of ALL Alembics. Because its EBONY! This wood is so dense with compact grain, it really intensifies the strings energy.  
 
In addition to Treksters note, a one piece neck is so unstable that it's like playing russian roulette. This is most like a tree branch subject to every whim of the weather, humidity, temperature, etc. While it may look cool and exactly opposite to a laminated neck, it is returning back to medieval times to the begining of history of luthiary. A single piece of wood for a neck is a bad idea for many reasons including dead spots, active hot spots, and prone to warping and twisting! Yuk! A good way to describe the sound of this neck would be warm and mushy. But only if at ideal weather conditions. Not a good pick for gigging on the road. I owned a few Rickenbackers before I gave up on them. My luthier would only laugh at them when I brought them in for frequent repairs. He pointed out the numerous design flaws so I could recognise them from a distance. All Ricks have two truss rods, but only one truss rod anchor at the head stock. As you adjust one, the anchor or nutbar as some call it twists, and loosens the adjustment of the other rod. You can spend days adjusting the truss rods and never getting it right until the nutbar is replaced with individual nut collars which makes them totally independant - like Alembics. If you tighten too much, you can break a rod fairly easily. Also, Ricks suffer in other places too. The tailpiece which they claim is an engineering masterpiece has been cast from the cheapest material possible: Gunmetal, a powder cast nickel that is not very strong. In fact it is rather gooey. The far end starts lifting up from the tension of the strings, and you find yourself tuning up all the time. Eventually you can store your pick under the widening gap, and then when you get to 2 picks, it's time to go to the luthier for a repair: Screws drilled down from the top and forcing it down for good! I had an earlier 4001 which had a really pretty quilted maple top with a single piece maple neck. The inlays on the rosewood fingerboard were Abalone chips, and they were the triangles that went all the way to the edges of the fingerboard. It looked just like Chris Squire's Rick of Yes around the Fragile album. I also had a newer maple Rick 4001 that had triangle inlays with the rounded corners and a swirly sort of plastic glitter material, not Abalone, alas. One day in the repair shop my Luthier was looking closely at the fingerboard, and he said Wait a minute, what is that? He got his magnifyer specs on and looked very closely at the inlay then started laughing so hard, he couldn't stop. There was a soldering lug shaped like a key-hole under the swirly glitter just barely visible, but it was there! That's pathetic! The Ricks also suffered from a very flimsy neck. The neck-thru was attached to the body and just less than a 1/2 away, the neck pickup rout cut clean through the neck laminations on the body and nearly 3/4 of the way down to the back. Even slight finger pressure on the fingerboard was enough to buzz out the strings. With a low action the Rick requires a very light touch, much lighter than the average Rock player is capable of maintaining. And we all know that the style of the Rick is what Rock bassists were drawn to.
So laminations really make sense when making a wood neck. They look better, they perform better, They're more stable and they support the notes better than a single piece neck.
Kris

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2006, 04:44:51 AM »
Rickenbackers are the biggest pile of crap ever made..I mean why on earth do you need a magent which looks as if it belongs to a particle accelerator to produce a sound if thats what you can call it..and metallic untonal clonk..have you ever seen jazz or funk played on a Ricky??
The looks are..well shall we say an aquired taste.
You are right about the neckthru..a chunk of wood which is hardly stable..at least fender secure there necks with screws..I have heard so many stories of warped necks with them basses
Let the rockers keep them along with the 60's diehards

lbpesq

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10683
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2006, 07:12:42 AM »
I insist on sticking my $.02 in the midst of all this Ricky bashing.  I don't know about the basses, but I have a Ricky 360/12 (that's a 12 string guitar for the Rickenbacker challenged) that I love.  It has that Byrds-like jingle jangle tone that nothing else achieves.  My only gripe is that the neck is awfully narrow for a 12 string - exactly the same as the Ricky 6 string version.  The design with the curved front and bound back, split level pickguard, and fireglo finish is classic.  
 
Bill, tgo

bassdr

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2006, 01:36:38 PM »
And now my $0.02 as well. My '79 4001 has a 3 piece neck and has been very stable for years with a nice low action, no issues. However it doesn't get played except rarely since I got Flame Koa Essence, my Alembic is so much better for me in every way but I won't part with Mr Rick. Michael

bigredbass

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3032
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2006, 10:09:25 PM »
K6
 
I know that feeling about the absolutely neutral tone that the graphite necks have:  I 'test-drove' an original Steinberger for about 20 minutes one time, and while it wasn't for me, I've NEVER forgotten that every note on every string on every fret sounded the same from nut to last fret.  Ultimately, though, I'm a 'wood' guy, and the laminates help a lot.
 
A one piece neck is one of those things that sounds like a good idea . . . until you think it through that grain going in different directions (hell, even knots) can be hidden, and lay waiting to do VERY high strangeness.
 
Although 4001s are somewhat iconic to me (they're so cool looking in black), I could NEVER get a decent sound out of one, the pickups are a joke, the tailpiece should be legislated out of existence (though HipShot is now making a first rate replacement), and somewhere there is a mountain of thrown-away Ric-O-Sound boxes. Lots of people have made terrific music on them, but they always eluded me, somehow.  
 
And yet one day, they WILL reissue the 4005's with the 360 style hollow body and the 'R' tailpiece and I'll be in line to get one. Go figure!
 
J o e y

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2006, 06:21:51 AM »
well I suppose I caould eat a littel humble pie about Rickys, I don't like 'em but I couldn't imagine Lemmy playing an Alembic or Bruce Foxton from The Jam in the 70's/early 80's so I suppose each to there own.

trekster

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 161
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2006, 11:43:33 AM »
Hey K6, in some instances you are very correct.  One thing of note -- the Ric bass in particular I had mentioned was the 4004CII.. while what you said is true about the bridge for the 4001/4003 basses, the 4004 have a Schaller-style bridge that is by far more modern, stable, and user-friendly.   They also sport different pickups than the 4001/3 models.. still have some Ric quality to them, but with the 4004 using walnut for the body wings (some with maple tops and backs, but always some walnut) instead of the 4001/3 having solid maple wings, they are reportedly much different than the classic Ric.
 
However, the 4004's are the basses with the very-evident one piece necks (most of the 4001/3 basses I've seen are Maple-Walnut-Maple, but that has changed on and off during the years).  Hence the question.    
 
--J

811952

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2507
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2006, 07:53:50 AM »
Dave Brubeck's bassist used a fretless Rickenbacker 4001, and it sounded wonderful...
 
Rick James played a Rick 4001 as well I believe...

terryc

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2488
Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2007, 08:05:48 AM »
Thought this thread had gone to the archive, I still have my doubts over Rick basses though, latest I heard is that a friend of mine had one and he said the neck went like a banana and no amount of adjustment on the truss rods solved it(obviously from the explanation that Keurosix gave).
Maybe they were built for gentle useage as in country players.