Author Topic: Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.  (Read 494 times)

grynchin

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« on: January 11, 2006, 08:40:10 PM »
I'm new to the club.  I have an Epic 4 string and now looking at a 5 string.  My 4 has 5 piece maple/walnut?/maple/walnut?/maple.  The 5 I am looking at is 5 piece, but all maple.  I am curious to know, other than aesthetics(I like the looks of the dark stripes) is there any difference(tone, strength, cost, value, etc.)?  ANY info will be muchly appreciated.  I also noticed that the 4 uses smaller(pin line) strips of walnut? whereas the 5 has bigger more equally sized strips of maple.  Oh yeah, both versions are laminated of course, I just thought the title might get more people to look...    ;}

richbass939

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 09:26:41 PM »
Welcome to the club.  I have a 4 and a 5 Epic.  The 4 neck is 3 pieces of maple.  The 5 neck is 9 pieces of maple and walnut (MWMWMWMWM).  The walnuts are very thin and the maples are about 1/4 inch.  They do sound a bit different from each other.  It could just be my lack of a discriminating ear but I can't hear any difference that the necks make.  There are so many things that could be bigger factors, I don't know how you would really tell.  There are some real wood experts in the club that could explain the differences.
Rich

bob

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 10:35:54 PM »
I'm not qualified to comment on the sound differences here, so I'll just mention that the walnut pinstripes you mention are generally referred to as veneers, while the wider strips (1/4 or so) are the ones referred to as laminates, especially if they are of a different wood.
 
Of course, even if you just have several pieces of maple glued together, then sure, it's a laminated construction. Again, without actual experience, I would be inclined to think that the walnut pinstripes have a fairly modest effect, compared to substantial laminates of something like purpleheart or ebony.
 
But I am convinced that fives are better than fours :-) Welcome.
-Bob

the_8_string_king

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2006, 12:23:23 AM »
Purpleheart is denser/stronger/heavier than maple, and increases strength, sustain, and/but also mass/weight.
 
Ebony is even more dense/strong/heavy than purpleheart, and so increases the strength, sustain and mass/weight even more.
 
Ebony has particularily awesome tonal characteristics when used as a neck laminate or laminates. It SIGNIFICANTLY and most noticably increases not only the overall sustain, but also the sustain of the fundamental partial -which is the first to decay in a ringing note. Ebony makes the fundamental partial ring MUCH more noticably; the effect has to be heard to be appreciated; but if you dig around you'll find plenty of testimonials from club members -myself included. 6 of my custom 8-string europa's 13 laminates are ebony, and it completely smokes every other bass -even other Alembics- I've ever heard. I tend to think the only possible thing that could top my bass soundwise would be having the same specs with the legendary Series electronics.
 
Now keep in mind that most of the time when people get ebony laminates they do so on neck thrus, but I do know that there is at least one bass in the custom archives that has ebony laminates in a SET neck, so if your plan were to consider them in a set neck, it might be a good idea to find this person and ask his/her opinion.
 
Personally, I'd always recommend saving up for a neck thru. An essence bass with europa electronics and an ebony laminate or two probably wouldn't be TOO hideously expensive.
 
I'd never buy another bass (or electric guitar) without ebony. It's every bit as good as the hype. It's better.
 
Check out my bass 8 strings of power in the custom archives, and in my thread allow me to formally introduce myself in the introductions section!
 
My bass is an exceptional beast in many ways, especially with the neck, with the inner core being mainly composed of ebony, then purpleheart. But it's heavy too, not for everyone.

grynchin

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2006, 10:50:32 AM »
Very cool comments, and I appreciate the input.  I would also like to know why they would use all maple in one 5 piece neck, and put two pinstripes of walnut in another 5 piece neck.  Especially on the same model.  Would cost be a factor, customer or factory preference, etc.?  I agree that I don't think I would be able to hear a difference in that wood or neck configuration, but I am wondering more why they did it than anything I guess.  Thanks again for your comments.

mica

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2006, 11:09:14 AM »
The original Epics had only Maple necks. After making them for a while, we realized that that much Maple stacked next to eachother resembled a butcher block, so we added the tiny Walnut veneers for decoration only. I do not think that you would be able to perceive a difference in sound between one with and without the veneers.  
 
There is always one less veneer than laminate in an Epic (Orion, Excel) neck now, unless the customer requests differently. The reason is that we like the way it looks, just as you observed.  
 
It sounds like your 4-string was made more recently than the 5-string you are considering.

grynchin

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2006, 01:37:21 PM »
Thank you mica for your input as well.  I do agree with the butcher block theory, and that is pretty much what brought my attention to it.  I like the looks of my 4 string walnut-striped neck better than the all maple 5 string neck I'm looking at getting.  Thank you kindly....and you guys don't miss anything!   ;}

jseitang

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2006, 09:15:56 PM »
hey why not have both?
i have ebony laminates plus ebony pinstripes , and i think thats is the winning combination.

terryc

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2006, 06:00:39 AM »
Multiple laminates look great and it has said that ebony laminates make the fundemental sustain forever!
Some say that too many glue joints affect the tone..well that is absolute crap..the amount of glue between those joints wouldn't even fill a cup and modern glues are far more neutral than old style animal or PVA type adhesives.
Up market drum kits(DW, Pearl MasterWorks etc) use multiple glue laminates on their shells and they sound fantastic.
A single piece of wood is more suceptible to warp than laminates glued with their grains at right angles. Each species of wood has its own signature tone and when combined can enhance the sound spectrum.
Sorry but multiple laminates for necks & bodies are the way to go and they look so damn good too!

george_wright

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2006, 08:04:11 AM »
Terry said quote:Some say that too many glue joints affect the tone..well that is absolute crap.  Here's a thought....
 
Consider the limiting case, a la calculus.  Let's say we cut more and more laminations, in more and more directions, until the number of laminations approaches infinity.  Then we'll have a bunch of fibers embedded in a glue matrix.  Hmmm, that would be like a graphite neck, wouldn't it?  
 
Yeah, I know I'm talking cellulose fibers instead of graphite fibers here, and it's only a thought anyway.  Still, I don't think you can just assert that too many glue joints affect the tone.  I'd want to hear some rationale.

jazzyvee

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2006, 11:37:13 AM »
Well too many laminates I would imagine would make the instrument a bit like plywood rather than a nice hipppy sandwich.
 
I doubt if a plywood guitar would have that much sustain.
There would also be lots of glued joints  to affect the tone too.
 
Sensibility is the thing, don't ruin a good thing by going ott. :-)
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
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terryc

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 01:58:36 PM »
The difference between plywood and laminates is the wood used..I mean could you afford ebony/maple/purpleheart plywood for your decking??
Graphite necks..that is not glue..that is a polymer,,an adhesive is a substance that joins two like or unlike materials together without adding strength to the materials Epoxy is not a glue..it is a resin which acts like a glue as well to bond AND add strength.
Just thought I would clarify that..I would hate to tell my drummer that his Pearl MasterWorks drums or his Bill Bruford Signature snaredrum is made from plywood!!!!

jazzyvee

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2006, 12:17:23 PM »
You could always try :-)
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
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dfung60

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2006, 12:37:38 AM »
A couple of comments...
1) Your drummer's drum *is* plywood.  So is your Alembic.  A big sheet of plywood is a big laminated sheet of thin plies of fir or mahogany or baltic birch.  It's created that way for basically the same reason that your Alembic's neck is laminated - by orienting the grain of the wood in opposition between different pieces you get a stronger, stiffer result.  Now, the details of the construction are quite different - plywood is usually oriented at 90 angles between plies, but the bookmatch-type laminations in an Alembic neck are intended to equalize any warping tendancies by mirroring them across the glue lines.  
 
If you want a high performance neck, this is a good way to do it.  Although you can find a single big piece of maple which would have equal stiffness, you'll reject a lot more wood to find that good piece.  
 
You see exotic select, one-piece necks on a few guitars these days - rosewood neck PRS guitars, the Klein Electric (also rosewood, and these are truly a single piece including fingerboard).  And of course, there's a lot of maple Fender necks out there, too.  Given the existing Alembic pricing, it's somewhat terrifying to imagine the upcharge for a non-laminated neck!  Or what could have higher wastage than a snare drum carved from a single, gigantic block of wood (of course, if Alembic were doing this, they'd probably pull a continuous back plates trick and build a whole concentric set of drums from a single block!).
 
The flip side of a Klein neck is a Kubicki Ex-Factor neck which is built-up out of 1/8 plies of maple, visible on the back of the neck.  Another extreme laminated instrument are the Ned Steinberger NSDesign US/EU upright basses which are built of curved alternating layers of wood and graphite like the cross-section of an onion.
 
Every different material in the neck has some effect on the tone, but I think that glue is probably not a big factor vs. the wood choice in necks.  Now, if you're building an acoustic guitar with that light shaved top, I think the choice of glue and joints may have a very significant damping effect.
 
2)Graphite - From a mathematical standpoint, I think george_wright's comment is correct about graphite.  Modulus necks (and this includes the graphite Alembics which were fabricated by Modulus) are built up of layers of pre-preg graphite material - graphite fabric impregnated with epoxy resin.  
 
As I mentioned above, I doubt that glue in a neck is a big factor in the sound (assuming a proper glue is used).  By volume, glue is probably only 1-2% of the mass of the neck.  In a graphite neck, I believe the resin is probably 30+% of the mass of the neck.  Now that's cured into a solid so it's not like the fibers are floating around.
 
David Fung

terryc

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Necks: To laminate or not to laminate? New guy.
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2006, 09:58:18 AM »
okay I shall tell my drummer his kit is made from plywood and suffer the broken nose I will get as he a rather chunky chap!!
I still think the term plywood(even though it MAY be true) sounds on the cheap side..laminates sounds much more exclusive!
Looks like I have got something going here.
I hate graphite guitars..once had a steinberger..didn't like the feel at all but if you live in Florida, New Orleans etc and do outdoor gigs I guess thats why they use parker fly guitars and modulus basses..humidity + heat = warped neck
Great discussion over all this though