Author Topic: Some thoughts about adjustable nuts  (Read 896 times)

bigredbass

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2016, 10:21:21 PM »
Because David (see above), the strings are suspended between two points and they just ring, same as a pedal steel, a grand piano, or virtually any stringed instrument.  Differences in windings, single wire strings, it will vary, but it's the string:  There's nowhere along the production line at Taylor or Fender or Ibanez or Yamaha, etc.,etc., where they 'add sustain' into the body of the instrument.
 
If you've ever read any of the interviews with the 60's session bassists, Babbitt, Carol Kaye, Joe Osborne, et al, they all added a piece of foam rubber just ahead of the bridge to keep the sustain down, and they were playing flatwounds, often with a pick.
 
This idea that the sustain is in the wood somehow is just not accurate.  Granted, some guitars are louder and seem to sustain better than others (in acoustics you are really at the mercy of the snowflake randomness of wood), and I personally hate cheap basses made out of poplar or 'basswood' (w-t-h is that anyway), so it does color it.  But I daresay a Series One in knotty pine or all alder would sustain the same way.  
 
To me, the wood 'seasons' the inherent tone of the pickups, makes it lighter or heavier, but I fail to see any way wood adds any sustain on its own.
 
It's all so very subjective . . . .  
 
Joey

jazzyvee

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2016, 12:00:36 AM »
Love this thread. My thoughts are this, once you pluck a string on your solid body bass or guitar, all the energy that will keep the string vibrating is transferred to the string at that point.  
 
So with that in mind, after that initial pluck everything else removes energy from the string at differing rates. If the points where the string is connected to the instrument, bridge, nut or frets), are loose or not very dense then those parts will vibrate and dissipate the energy of the vibrating string as sound/heat much more quickly than if the points connecting the vibrating string to a body are stiff and highly dense. In this case this energy will take longer to decay because it will be harder for the string energy to move these stiff dense objects and hence the losses will take longer to take place and result in the string vibrating for a longer period.
 
What I understand about alembic is, this is part of their design, stiff dense neck and dense hardware so that  the energy imparted on the string takes longer to dissipate and hence the string sustains it's vibrations for longer.  Sustain is not added the idea is to allow the string to vibrate for as long as it is able.
 
So back to Bill's point I think if the nut is tight and of dense material which the brass nut is then on open strings at least it should make a difference to the sustain of the instrument. Standard nuts I presume are there to allow less impedance to the energy of the string getting into the body.
 
As for tone, I'm still working out my thoughts on tone generally but my thoughts are that assuming the pickups are not voiced, then what they output will be the frequencies of the vibrations that have not yet been attenuated by the body, hardware, magnetic pull, air resistance etc etc.  Just an early morning wild thought.
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

jazzyvee

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2016, 12:11:19 AM »
Love this thread. My thoughts are this, once you pluck a string on your solid body bass or guitar, all the energy that will keep the string vibrating is transferred to the string at that point.  
 
So with that in mind, after that initial pluck everything else removes energy from the string at differing rates. If the points where the string is connected to the instrument, bridge, nut or frets), are loose or not very dense then those parts will vibrate and dissipate the energy of the vibrating string as sound/heat much more quickly than if the points connecting the vibrating string to a body are stiff and highly dense. In this case this energy will take longer to decay because it will be harder for the string energy to move these stiff dense objects and hence the losses will take longer to take place and result in the string vibrating for a longer period.
 
What I understand about alembic is, this is part of their design, stiff dense neck and dense hardware so that  the energy imparted on the string takes longer to dissipate and hence the string sustains it's vibrations for longer.  Sustain is not added the idea is to allow the string to vibrate for as long as it is able.
 
So back to Bill's point I think if the nut is tight and of dense material which the brass nut is then on open strings at least it should make a difference to the sustain of the instrument. Standard nuts I presume are there to allow less impedance to the energy of the string getting into the body.
 
As for tone, I'm still working out my thoughts on tone generally but my i think that assuming the pickups are not voiced, then what they output will be the frequencies of the vibrations that have not yet been attenuated by the body, hardware, magnetic pull, air resistance etc etc.  So if the places where the losses occur dissipate specific frequencies then the amplitude of these frequencies remaining in the vibrating string will be reduced and less picked up by the pickup. Just an early morning wild thought.
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

dtothec

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2016, 09:43:15 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that whether the nut is glued solidly to the finger board or attached by two screws there is no difference. An analogy would be if you had a 100lb vibrating box sitting flat on the floor, or sitting on 4 legs, the full force of 100lbs vibrating is still on the floor, it's just more lbs per sq inch but it's still 100lbs vibrating on the floor. I agree with Jazzy that if the nut is made of something soft the vibration would be absorbed and disapate quickly vs something hard that would not absorb as much of the   energy thus a longer sustain.
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dtothec

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2016, 09:49:30 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that whether the nut is glued solidly to the finger board or attached by two screws there is no difference. An analogy would be if you had a 100lb vibrating box sitting flat on the floor, or sitting on 4 legs, the full force of 100lbs vibrating is still on the floor, it's just more lbs per sq inch but it's still 100lbs vibrating on the floor. I agree with Jazzy that if the nut is made of something soft the vibration would be absorbed and disapate quickly vs something hard that would not absorb as much of the   energy thus a longer sustain.
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lbpesq

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2016, 10:45:59 AM »
I agree that the total pressure should be the same whether the weight rests on just two screws or a larger flat surface.  Nevertheless, in the context of Fender type bridge saddles, there is a significant difference in how the guitar reacts.  It empirically seems that the weight spread across the much larger contact area of the full contact saddles results in greater acoustic volume and a change in electric tone/sustain than when all the weight rests on the two adjustment screws.  
 
Bill, tgo

wick5

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2016, 01:26:39 PM »
Are we sustaining longer with double posts?
(Sorry...couldn't resist)

dtothec

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2016, 02:45:23 PM »
You got it! Lol!
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dtothec

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2016, 02:49:44 PM »
Just being a NUT! I couldn't resist!
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keith_h

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2016, 03:50:05 PM »
Because David (see above), the strings are suspended between two points and they just ring, same as a pedal steel, a grand piano, or virtually any stringed instrument. Differences in windings, single wire strings, it will vary, but it's the string: There's nowhere along the production line at Taylor or Fender or Ibanez or Yamaha, etc.,etc., where they 'add sustain' into the body of the instrument.  
 
I disagree with this premise as it implies the string is independent of its environment. In a theoretical setting the string between the nut and bridge is independent of its environment and in this case sustain is strictly confined to the energy that is introduced and how long it takes that string to dissipate the energy. However in musical instruments the string is coupled to the instrument so the instrument will have an effect on sustain by dampening and absorbing the energy of the strings. It can also increase sustain via feedback loops at certain resonance frequencies. An instrument does this through the materials, construction used to build it and their effect on the various frequencies being generated by the string. In some instruments like a piano the effect of the case is minimal because of the large mass of the harp but even here the selection and construction of the sound board will make or break its tone and dynamics. A perfect example of this interaction is the Fender bass dead spot (it actually exists on most if not all basses just not to the same degree). The problem is caused by harmonic resonance dampening that frequency and reducing the strings energy. Similar actions are taking place with the type of neck to body construction that is used. It is why bolt on necks have the midrange bump and typically less sustain than neck-through or set neck instruments. In general the looser the coupling between the instrument and the string attachments the more string energy that will be lost faster resulting in less sustain. The mass of the attachments will also have an effect as more mass serves to provide more isolation from the wood in the case of basses and guitars. It also has a second effect in coupling the strings better with the body or neck reducing the energy lost across the hardware instrument boundaries.  
 
Keith

ed_zeppelin

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2016, 09:29:04 AM »
I've owned a Rainsong WS1000 carbon fiber guitar for over twenty years, and everybody who plays it says the same thing. (Usually two words, one of which is holy.) They're especially knocked out by the high end. It's crystal clear and pure, more so than any wooden guitar I've ever heard.  
 
I wanted to discuss something surprising I discovered, a factor that nobody has mentioned yet, that arose many years ago in the course of researching this phenomena.
 
I found this profile of John Decker, founder of RainSong on a physics site. (I know what you're thinking; what's that moron Forest doing on a physics site? That's like a gorilla in a knitting forum!) It's from the 90s, but something he said has intrigued me ever since.
 
First, a little bit about John Decker. The only reason I'm including this is so people know that the dude knows what he's talking about when it comes to physics and materials:
 
quote:Decker ... studied aerospace engineering at MIT, and then went to Cambridge University, where he earned a PhD in plasma physics in 1966. After receiving his PhD, Decker worked as a research physicist for the Air Force, and then moved to the Sperry Rand Research Lab in Sudbury, Massachusetts, where his research focused on plasma stability. ... In 1981, Decker moved to Hawaii as manager of the Air Force?s optical observatory. ...
 
See what I mean? MIT, Cambridge, multiple PhDs in physics, gummint work at high-falutin' optical thingamabobs. Smart guy.
 
Hang in there. I'm editing the crap outta this to get to the point, but trying not to omit anything important:
 
quote:?I discovered that in fact, I recognized the equations,? Decker says. They were familiar from his earlier work on acoustic waves in plasma. ?Magneto-acoustic waves, like the sound waves in a guitar soundboard, are funny acoustic waves that have different properties in different directions,? he explains.  
 
In plasma, the direction is typically defined by the magnetic field; in the soundboard of a guitar, the direction is typically defined by the grain direction of the wood. Properties such as acoustic velocity and stiffness are very different along and across the grain. ?There?s no explicit magnetic field terms in the equations for a guitar, but the rest of it I recognized,? Decker says. ...  
 
Okay, here we are, finally. The crux of the biscuit. Ready?
 
quote:Compared to a traditional wood guitar, a graphite guitar sounds clearer and brighter, especially at high frequencies.  
 
Above about a kilohertz, wood is highly damping, meaning that vibrational energy goes into heat instead of audible sounds, so the guitar sounds ?muddy,? Decker explains. ?By the time you get to high harmonics on the high E string, what you hear is the attack, because the vibration of the top only lasts a few cycles, then damps out almost immediately.?
 
Graphite, on the other hand, is much less damping, giving a graphite guitar a clearer sound. In addition, because wood is so lossy, it?s inherently nonlinear, resulting in a very complex structure of missing, enhanced, and mixed overtones. Graphite is a lot less lossy, so the nonlinearities are a lot less. The result is a very crisp, well defined treble, and clarity of sound that a wooden guitar doesn?t have, says Decker. ...
 
Here it is again, in case you missed it:
 
quote:Above about a kilohertz, wood is highly damping, meaning that vibrational energy goes into heat instead of audible sounds.
 
Heat. Nobody has mentioned heat. And since its relevance comes into play above 1K - where upper harmonics and partials define the individual characteristics of a particular instrument - how does that damping/heat thing apply to bass?
 
What I mean is that if you cut off every frequency above 1K or so, you can't tell the difference between a saxophone and a buzz-saw. It's like the old grade school science experiment where if you hold your nose, you can't tell the difference between an apple and a potato. In acoustics, the upper harmonics provide the defining characteristics of a particular instrument.
 
And bear this in mind: in the olden days, on cold nights when Alembic owners gathered around a campfire made from Gibson basses (ptew), it was whispered that Wickershams can hear wood the same way Monet saw colors.  
 
Perhaps that explains the brass blocks, neck-thru designs and other mass-ive characteristics inherent in our masterpieces, as well (or instead of) the vaunted sustain issue this thread is predicated upon?
 
They can teach us, if we behave. And I want to remind everyone that just because I raised the issue doesn't mean I know anything about it (or knitting, come to think of it).
 
In fact, from the moron's point of view, all I've derived from this thunderbolt of wisdom about sound waves turning into heat is that it explains why Jimi's guitars burst into flames.
 
Discuss.

gtrguy

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2016, 10:34:14 AM »
All a person has to do is go into a Guitar Center store and pluck the strings on a row of Strats hanging up side by side to realize that the wood plays some kind of part in the process.

pauldo

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2016, 01:51:46 PM »
Tungsten carbide bridge and nut.

bigredbass

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Some thoughts about adjustable nuts
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2016, 08:26:14 PM »
Forest I didn't wonder why you were there (I love cruising the Help Wanted ads in the CIA website, the web allows investigation of so many arcane interests and subjects), but the idea of a campfire stoked with 'Gibson basses' (an oxymoron if I EVER heard one) has given me such a warm, wonderful feeling . .. .  .
 
Thanks to all and I appreciate the discussion !
 
Joey