Author Topic: Cutting through the mix? (Read 1523 times)

llobsterbass · « **Reply #30 on:** March 03, 2016, 03:17:22 PM »

That's some crazy mofo rig there Willie. Do the lights dim in town when you hit a low B?

Just stopped by 'cause I wanna say my Orion is one of the best recording basses I've ever played. Just set flat, maybe a bit towards neck pickup. preamp or just DI. Sounds warm but defined and punchy, very three-dimensional.

5a_quilt_top · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2016, 07:41:27 AM »

Look closely at the lamp shade in the pic - I believe that may give a clue as to the force of the low end generated by that rig...

;-)

But, what I really want to know is how well did all of those acoustic guitars fare in that situation? I ask because we have several acoustic guitars hanging on the walls at the small guitar store where I work part time and any time we fire up a bass rig that's a fraction of that size, even at a relatively low volume, the sympathetic string vibrations in the acoustic guitar area are significant.

willie · « **Reply #32 on:** March 09, 2016, 11:50:12 AM »

The power amps weren't turned up that much.
Most Acoustic guitars had their own amp. And a small PA for vocals. It was overkill for the Gig. But when it came time and everyone was yelling for a Solo I had plenty of headroom. And the tone is amazing. Nobody complains about it. Ironically if I play with a band with electric guitars going through Marshall Amps they are al intimidated and complain that it is too much. I am never too loud. The amps have Volume, (Input Gain Controls), so I can play as loud as I need to. It always ends up with me telling the guitar players to turn down. Go Figure!!!

5a_quilt_top · « **Reply #33 on:** March 09, 2016, 03:42:14 PM »

Oh, don't worry - yer preachin' to th' choir re: clarity and headroom and the power required to achieve it. I know your rig sounds amazing (and crystal clear) at low volumes just by looking at it. Besides, you're holding an Alembic, so 'nuff said.

My remarks were tongue in cheek - just couldn't resist when I saw the angle of the lamp shade.

And - since I'm both a guitarist and a bassist, I've been on both sides of the fence re: volume wars and, IMO, it is pretty basic:

Guitar is perceived as being (too) loud in the immediate proximity of its amp / cab and bass is perceived as being (too) loud about 30 - 50 feet away from its amp / cab.

Since the bass usually can't be heard real well / distinctly within close proximity to its amp, the first inclination for the bassist (who is usually standing right in front of the amp / cab) is to boost the volume just a bit for better clarity / cut - which in turn ups the ante for the rest of the band - and it's game on.

This goes back to the topic of this thread - cutting through the mix. As long as the bass cuts through adequately at a reasonable volume while occupying its own little sonic spectrum and the guitars and drums both behave themselves and respect that turf - all is well.

The best solution I've found to date is to use a DI capable of feeding both the PA and a private powered monitor that is angled up at me and away from everyone else. This way I can blast myself with as much bass as I want (within reason) and the PA delivers the correct mix to the house.

jazzyvee · « **Reply #34 on:** March 09, 2016, 04:32:47 PM »

Hi Willie, since you are playing in a band with acoustic guitars I wonder if there is any difference in how and what you play compared to playing with electric guitar bands. Also I'm curious as to how you develop bass lines for original material when doing acoustic gigs also.
The reason I ask is that I have a dep gig with an acoustic band, guitar, drums and vocalists, coming up next month and as well as learning some music from their recently released album I have to put a bass line to a song that hasn't isn't on the album so all I have is guitar drums and vocals on a recording from my phone at rehearsal.

For the album tracks I'm staying close to what is recorded for obvious reasons and the baselines of the tracks pretty much stay on the beat and follow the roots of the chords and on the beat and that works really effectively with the rest of the band, but I would like to do something different with this other track since it's an opportunity to give something of me to the gig.

Another side to this which fits in with the original posting is that my plan has been to do this gig on my 4 string series I bass since the regular bass player in the band also uses a 4 string bass. However this afternoon I decided to try playing along to the tracks with my series II Europa 5 and that bass seems to bring the track more alive. To my ears It seems like the cleanliness of the fundamental notes compliment the acoustic guitar chords a lot better.

Hopefully Jimmy will chip into this since he's already contributed to the thread and maybe I can get some feedback on how he approaches this.

I have a rehearsal with the band in a couple of weeks so will most likely take the two basses to hear what works best in the flesh so to speak.

Here is an example of the band and one of the tracks I'll be doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQb1e12Eus

JimmyJ · « **Reply #35 on:** March 10, 2016, 09:52:34 AM »

Hey Jazzy,

A bit off topic but since it's your thread we'll all come along! Ha!

I'll post some thoughts here but I don't know if I can describe my approach because I don't really know what I'm doing... Plus, if you're thinking about my playing with James Taylor remember that his guitar parts already include all the bass parts so that's more about choosing what to double and what to leave out. I don't feel like I make those bass parts up completely, if you know what I mean.

Subbing on a band, the main goal is to make it a seamless experience for them. You want them to forget there is somebody else playing the parts so they can concentrate on what they're doing. For instance, that's a nice and slightly unusual bass part in that track and your goal should be to honor it by playing it just like that.

As far as which bass you might want to play - sound-wise I'm sure any of your axes would be great. Alembics have such an open and natural sound that they work well with acoustic instruments - IMO. As long as you don't kick in the wah-wah pedal I think it'll be good. Also be sensitive to volume levels, be sure to ask at rehearsal if you're playing too loud (even if you can barely hear yourself).

And again the goal is to not distract the other band members in any way. With that in mind, if you think your 5-string fits better sonically then play it, but I suggest rarely using the low string because that will be a new and distracting sound for the band. You know, if a song is in D I would certainly end on a low-D, but might not play it anywhere else in the song (OK, maybe the downbeat of the choruses). If you go down below E too often the singers are going to turn around and make a face at you.

Now, making up a part for the new song... I guess you should try to channel what their regular player might do. Keep it simple and in the same style of course. The personal touches in what we do are very subtle. A moving / passing note between vocal phrases, a little slide up to the upper octave... That kind of thing.

That's about all I've got. Our job in these situations is to support the song and the singer(s). And even if you were to play exactly the same notes their bassist plays, your me contribution to the gig will be your lovely clear bass tone. I'm sure they will be happy to have you there.

Jimmy J

willie · « **Reply #36 on:** March 11, 2016, 11:39:03 AM »

Hi Jazzyvee
That Gig with the acoustic guitars a once a year event that I play in the mountains of PA.
I tend to be making up what I am playing as I go along because I only get to play with these people once a year. It's musicians from Massachusetts to Virginia and by invitation.
Luckily I am the only Bass Player there so they are kind of stuck with whatever I come up with.
It can be quite difficult to hold back with what style you play and how loud and I would be lying if I said that I didn't overdue it once in a while. But they seem to be happy with it and always insist at some point on hearing what my Alembic Basses can do through that rig. They all say they never heard a Bass sound that good and clear. I get comments like. I saw a Bass Rig like that at an Arena or Stadium Concert. Which it can certainly handle. I do however prefer to play with an electric band where I can be more aggressive and louder. So? Just go with what Jimmy J said. He knows better than I do.

jazzyvee · « **Reply #37 on:** March 11, 2016, 11:50:20 AM »

Hi Jimmy there is a tenuous connection with the topic somewhere, anyway thanks for your words. It's always a pleasure when I read your responses to members of this forum, and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience with us even if it's true that you don't know what you are doing, you know far more than me. I just know who to ask. :-)

I will take on your points and work on the new bass line.
I did one rehearsal with them a few couple of weeks ago and went through all the songs right first time which they were pleased about. The guitarist in particular loved the sound of my series I bass. Then they dropped the new song on me so I just recorded them playing it and will get something worked out before next rehearsal in a couple of weeks time.
Thanks again Jimmy J.

wick5 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 11, 2016, 05:11:48 PM »

Jimmy J,
Since you might be looking at this thread, I've got to say this. I went to a James Taylor concert in Raleigh, NC (Walnut Creek Ampitheater) around '92/93ish expecting to hear the great Leeland Sklar (wasn't following too closely JT's bandmates). After the first song, I was mesmerized by the bass tone. After the second song I was wondering who that bass player was. By the intermission I telling my friend that I was thinking I was hearing the tastiest bass player I had ever heard. I still think that. Don't blush! I just had to say it.

bsee · « **Reply #39 on:** March 11, 2016, 05:40:07 PM »

To me, cutting through is about identifying the bass as an instrument and hearing the distinct notes.

One of the things I find important to my success as a bass player is keeping the ego in check. Cutting through isn't always the right tone for the genre or the group. I try to serve the song. If you're playing with a multiple other instruments, that often means a lows-heavy tone that ties in with the drummer, providing a foundation that everyone else can groove to. One of the biggest problems with cutting through in a multi-guitar rock band, or with a keyboard is that both the left hand of the keyboard and some overdriven guitar tones invade the bass's traditional frequency range. That can be the environment where you need to find the right place in the mids to bump if you're looking to cut through.

Playing with a single guitar does make for a larger lane, but it also can create quite the challenge. I've been in that situation with my current band for over ten years. There are times when I am playing bass lines, replacing lines for a second guitar, covering sax solos, and who knows what else. There's no one else on the bottom, so my tone has to provide the thump, but that cutting through comes into play when serving some of the other needs. If the lows get too thin, the song suffers.

In my experience, that cutting through comes from multiple sources. Yes, we've all spoken about EQ adjustment. Recognize that it is sometimes not your EQ that needs to be adjusted, but rather the guitar player that needs a tweak to make room for you. That thick, driven guitar tone that sounds great when you're playing alone doesn't always fit into the band mix. The other thing that is critical is all in your hands. A significant part of hearing the bass notes is about attack and articulation, as well as controlling the ending of notes. If you play mushy, you sound mushy. My playing style has to be different if I'm playing an old-school 50's tune than if I'm replacing a sax solo or an upper-register keyboard line. This is where the Alembic rules because it is so responsive to playing style. I can play with slow attack around the neck and get the 50's tone and move to plucking over the bridge pickup with more aggression for a sax solo, all without touching a knob. Fortunately, we play 90% of our gigs either without FoH support, or with a sound engineer who has the right mindset to makes us sound like us, only louder.

After rambling here a bit, I guess the point is to examine your playing technique as well as looking at settings when you're thinking about cutting through.

-bob

edwin · « **Reply #40 on:** March 12, 2016, 01:34:53 AM »

Jazzy, you have hit on something that is important for every musician to understand. As a recording engineer, I am often asked by a band why their recording doesn't sound like such and such and why the doesn't sound as good. 99 times out of 100, it's the arrangement. If people are playing over each other and playing too much, it's never going to sound good. The genius of the Sir George Martin was exactly this. With a great arrangement, you never have to fix it in the mix, it mixes itself. Same thing with live music.

wick5 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 12, 2016, 07:18:28 AM »

To keep from totally hi-jacking this thread, in my above post I meant to type in that JJ's every note was heard and cutting through that night in Raleigh.

(Message edited by wick5 on March 12, 2016)

JimmyJ · « **Reply #42 on:** March 12, 2016, 09:42:46 AM »

Thanks for all that Steve. Credit for cutting through the mix at that gig would have to go to John Godenzi our FOH man at the time - and as Edwin pointed out, the musical arrangements. Everybody in that band plays in a supportive style and it fits together like a nice puzzle. I'm a big Sklar fan too, those folks literally wrote the book on this kind of playing.

Jimmy J