Author Topic: To Bi-amp or Not to Bi-amp, that is the question. (Read 2597 times)

jazzyvee · « **on:** December 11, 2014, 01:55:52 PM »

Tomorrow night I have a concert with my band at a local music college and it is being fully tracked in pro-tools and a 5 camera video shoot. My plan is to have it mixed properly into a live album.
We are doing a Grover Washington Jr set in commemoration of 15 yrs since he passed away so if you know the music it's jazz funk.

I'm looking for advice about how to organise my gear to get the best sound on:
(a) on stage
(b) on the recording

The gear I have at my disposal consists of.
2 x F1-x's
1 x SF-2
QSC PLX 2402 Stereo Power amp
1 x 15 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab
4 x 10 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab
2 x 10 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab
I also have a Roland JC 120 that I could use via the high pass output on one or both F1-x's

My logical head says keep it simple use my regular mono setup and use two cabs.

On the other hand this is the best and most convenient opportunity to try out bi-amping my rig on stage but I just wanted to put it past you guys for some advice which may be that I should indeed, keep it simple.
I'm all ears so fire away.

tbrannon · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2014, 02:14:06 PM »

how much time do you have before the show to setup and then fiddle with things to get them the way you want?

I'd be tempted to just run your standard setup so you can focus on playing, rather than worrying about how things might sound in an unfamiliar setup.

Are you taking the Series bass to the show?

jazzyvee · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2014, 03:13:27 PM »

I probably have just under 2 hours allocated for our soundcheck so I could fiddle about for a bit and see how it feels.

As for the bass yes it will be both series I & II basses so I can get a chance to hear them both in a good environment. Most gigs I do are reggae so I don't really hear the full spectrum of the basses that often on a gig so I want to make the most of this opportunity.

sonicus · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2014, 04:21:07 PM »

Hello , Jazzy
How many channels is the recording engineering intending to use in the live recording ? IS this a live or studio engagement ?
There are many variables to consider on the stage sound, such as the instrumentation of the ensemble and the frequency balance and SPL's of the live performance and bleed over from the various microphones on stage. From your description it seems like there will be wind instruments as well and that makes the bleed over into the wind instrument mics even more of a pressing issue from a standpoint of a recording engineer . If I were the Engineer on your gig I would try to get a Stereo image first and then strive for articulate instrument clarity in the panorama and that requires a controlled and baffled stage setup. I like to use a DECCA TREE mic configuration over head for a stereo image build. NEXT I use soloist mics and mix them in to taste .

If you are using an Alembic Series I/II I have heard better results running in STEREO Rather then a BI -AMP configuration ! That way you can manipulate the response characteristics of either the bridge or neck pickup with the SF-2 to compliment the all over spectral needs of the ensemble . IF the Engineer is NICE he will allow for a DUAL direct feed from your preamps and then let him decide what to do with it and then focus on your playing and concentration on your playing . Congratulations on landing this gig my friend !

Wolf

sonicus · « **Reply #4 on:** December 11, 2014, 04:36:24 PM »

Hello Jazzy , In my first paragraph in the first sentence , I asked ;
IS this a live or studio engagement ? BY live I should have ask , IS there an audience , as in LIVE PERFORMANCE .

lbpesq · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2014, 04:54:46 PM »

I'm with Toby. I'd stick to a set up I am familiar and comfortable with. I know when I've tried something radically new at a gig or jam, I usually wind up fighting my equipment rather than being in the flow. At minimum, I'd want a few hours by myself messing around with the set up and dialing it in before playing with others. As Wolf notes, there are lots of variables that need to be considered. For myself, thinking about all this stuff would likely adversely affect both my playing and, ultimately, my enjoyment of the gig.

Bill, tgo

sonicus · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2014, 04:58:37 PM »

Hello Jazzy , In my first paragraph in the first sentence , I asked ;
IS this a live or studio engagement ? BY live I should have ask , IS there an audience , as in LIVE PERFORMANCE .

sonicus · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2014, 05:05:39 PM »

( double post control) Jazzy , I hope all goes to your satisfaction of the gig .

StephenR · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2014, 05:50:51 PM »

I tend to like to keep things simple. The more transparent the equipment is the easier I find it to play well.

I used to run a bi-amped rig back in the 80s but over time realized I liked running the cabinets full range better. A bi-amped rig also requires two mics mixed together properly if you want your stage sound represented in the mix along with a direct signal

If you haven't worked with the engineer or sound crew previously it is also a bit of a gamble to complicate things. Along with keeping all the musicians happy on stage they will have a lot of other stuff to deal with.

Whatever you decide, have a great gig.

edwin · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2014, 09:49:24 PM »

I agree with Wolf. For recording purposes, running the bass in stereo affords more control than bi-amping. Bi-amping is all about working with issues in live reproduction which don't have much to do with recording, especially if you are going direct. All of the cabs you are using are good cabs, but they aren't exactly flat, so you'll be making adjustments that will make the stage sound sound better but may not be the best thing for the recorded signal.

I've done all of the above many times and for years was a big believer in bi-amping. I still am for PA systems, but not so much for bass rigs (unless you can afford one like Phil Lesh or Mike Gordon, but those are PA systems). These days I run my bass in stereo whenever I can, for live and recording and it makes mixing very easy. Engineers seem to love it.

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2014, 09:52:29 PM »

Of course you should bi-amp! But not for the first time at a gig............

Peter (who really thinks you should add an 18 & tri-amp - but admits to being strange)

sonicus · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2014, 10:14:57 PM »

If you mic a Series I/II Alembic Bass processed in Stereo ; to obtain a Stage sound to your preference with your SF-2 , you can place your speakers in a standard column formation with only ONE Electrovoice RE-20 microphone placed in the correct location and angle of your stack with baffles to limit bass leakage to the other microphones .( it may never be used in the recorded mix and just recorded for the sake of having it if it is needed) For your Stereo DI is where the dual feed bass DI's can be implemented . Been there done that ____ . It all depends what the engineer is willing to do . It can really be a Walk in the Park and not really very complex . Many times all that gets used in 'print is the DI anyway . It all depends . You probably need your stage sound anyway for the other players unless everyone is JUST using headphone monitors , THERE ARE , really many variables in techniques !

Your engineer will likely want his own direct box feed from his own direct box feeding directly off your Bass before ANY of your own equipment . Perhaps ___ .

edwin · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2014, 10:41:19 PM »

All this goes to show how much it pays to work with engineers who know you. At the Last Waltz show at the Fillmore right before Thanksgiving, the sound guy, an old friend, said that he brought up the bass DI and bass mic and started doing his usual bass tricks and things weren't really gelling. Then he said to himself Oh right, this is Edwin's rig. and zeroed out the channel EQ and compression, brought up the DI fader, brought up the mic fader and was done. My DI is post everything (F2B and Lexicon).

Oh yeah, that should be a double 18 for the triamp!

sonicus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2014, 11:00:53 PM »

Edwin is right , everything is relative .
(Yes , double 18's ___ one crossover @300HZ and the other @150HZ ____LOL !!!) QUAD AMPED _____

jazzyvee · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2014, 11:34:28 PM »

Wow a lot to think of. Firstly let me try to clear up any ambiguities I had in my original posting. The event is an actual gig with an audience.. ( assuming anyone turns up).
The Sound engineer is the head of department at the music college we are performing at and teaches in the actual venue so knows it intimately. He is also a professional freelance sound engineer covering everything from small venues to major music festivals etc.... He has also been the sound engineer for the reggae band I play with, Musical Youth, for the past 8 years so he is very familiar now with alembics and what I like in my sound.

However where this differs is that this gig is going allow me to use the full bandwidth of the bass rather than mainly the bottom end which is the case with my reggae gigs. They have high quality gear there and he is going to do whatever he can with what they have available to get the best sound in the venue and on the recording.
I guess what I'm trying to say in a long winded way is. This is the best opportunity i've had since having my series basses to actually hear their full range with the equipment I have, and on a gig where I'm playing baselines that allow me to explore more fully what the basses can offer. I want to be able to hear that on stage whilst not compromising what is going on the recording.

He has already offered 4 channels just for bass with some thoughts regarding where the take the DI feed, from the bass or from the F1-x's and in addition putting a mic on both cabs if I'm running bi-amp.

I'm confused as to it means to have the bass in stereo vs Bi-amping?
For stereo do you mean having one pickup feeding the left FOH and one pickup feeding the right FOH?
If that is the answer well we decided that would not be sensible as I switch pickups for some tracks and the volume on both is hardly ever equal which could leave holes in the balance across the sound field.