What to do...my Pbass w/ Alembic pups, ? (pic)

[jigme]

This is my Poor Man's Alembic! OK Alembic lovers, I need some good advice. This is my '72 Pbass with Series I guts. I bought it in '79 in Petaluma. I haven't found a sound I LOVE! I blame it on the Alembic guts. My complaint is I find it harsh and nasal-sounding. I've kept it so long because I believe that somewhere in here lies a beautiful sounding, versatile instrument.  
 
 
I am thinking of trying Fred Hammond's Dark Star pups in it for a rounder, warmer yet articulate sound.
 
The body is heavily routed.  This would allow experimentation  without cutting out the body further. The existing pup  holes would only need slight enlarging. I would have to have a luthier do all this work ($$).
 
I think I have several options:
 
1) Sell it as is, put the $$ towards a bass I really want. This is appealing because I'm not crazy about the neck.  
 
2) Put in the Dark Star pups. Pro's: I get to keep a bass that's been with me a long time, I can try different pup positions, lower cash outlay. Con's: huge neck, and the pguard kinda floats which bugs me.
 
3) Keep it. Play it through tubes to get a decent sound.
 
Some would say if you're not in love with it, sell it and start fresh. Hard because I'm attached to it, and if I do replace the pups, being an older piece of wood it may sound better than a newer instrument.  
 
Any recommendations, including ways to pull out a better sound, are appreciated.
 

[kungfusheriff]

Man. That's what it looks like. We've talked about your Woods amp, right?
I'd say possibilities 3 to 1 in decending order--getting a new amp is always fun, and Dark Stars would be historically Alembic-appropriate if the tolerances match up, but for a last resort sell the tube amp and save up for a stem-to-stern Alembic.

[David Houck]

In the picture, the pickups don't look like Series pickups; the adjustment screws don't look right.  Also, I don't see the hum-cancelling pickup; perhaps it's beneath the pickguard.
 
That said, my first thought is that Series pickups and electronics are matched to each other.  Thus it would seem that replacing the pickups, if they are indeed Series pickups, might not be the best choice.

[phys49]

The pickup locations play a large roll in the harmonic content of the signal.These pickups are in the region of the string where the high and mid harmonics are more prominent in the mix.
This generally gives a less muddy sound at the expense of some loss of bottom end.
It sounds like the Alembic electronics and pickups are producing a realistic interpretation of the string motion at the pickup location.
I assume you have tried eq at the amp.
As for the neck issue, I can't justify keeping a bass that has a neck I hate. I understand you may have other sentimental reasons for keeping it. I have sold or returned several basses because of the neck. I can't play my best on a neck that is too large for my hands and I don't enjoy playing in a mediocre fashion.
I hope some of this is helpful.
Perry

[jigme]

kungfu - you are correct Sir! We have talked about my Woods amp before, and different strings as well. I'm confused - you are saying you think the best alternative is #1, right?  
 
dave - I'm not considering running the DS's thru the tone controls, I don't think it would work. The hum-cancelling pup is beneath the  pickguard. I was told by a repairman that it was still effective this way. Is that wrong? RE: The Series I pups--you're right, they're not the modern Series I. My hunch is that these are early electronics.
 
phys49 - thanks for the insight. When I first bought this the neck pup was close to the neck. I had it moved to get more punch and I could move it towards the neck again.
 
I appreciate the intelligent responses!

[jigme]

The question it all boils down to is how much tinkering do you do before calling it quits?
 
Is there a Beauty inside the this Beast?

[David Houck]

Jeffrey; no, it's not wrong.  The hum-cancelling pickup will work hidden beneath the pickguard.
 
Perry has a good point.  You may want to take some precise measurements of pickup placement on a Series bass as measured from the 20th fret and try to replicate that placement.  It looks like the bridge pickup needs to go back toward the bridge a little and that the neck pickup needs to go toward the neck some.
 
One easy thing you could try is to lower the pickup heights.  That should clean up the tone a little.
 
Another thing to try.  Roll the neck filter all the way to the low end and the bridge filter all the way to the high end.  Cut the Q's off on both.  Turn the neck volume all the way down.  Play a few lines and slowly bring the neck volume back up til you get a nice balance between low end and high end.  This technique should reduce the harsh and nasal-sounding tone you have and produce a rounder, warmer yet articulate sound.
 
Also, check out this post in the Must Reads for technical information on pickup placement; and as referenced in the thread linked to in that post, check out this very graphic representation of the effects of pickup placement here.

[811952]

Jeffrey,
 
If the body has been heavily routed, then it will never sound the same as other otherwise similar basses.  Geddy Lee had his favorite P-bass cut down to a teardrop shape and lamented that it sounded like total crap forever after.  I think probably the Alembic/P-bass combo, while well intentioned, was never meant to be and adversely affects the finer properties of both the actual tone of the physical instrument and what remaining tone the Alembic guts are able to transduce.  I'd say sell it to someone who wants some old Alembic guts to play with and get yourself an Excel maybe...
 
John (wishing he had some Propeller Porter right about now)

[kmh364]

There should be a way to save this pup. Warmoth sells replacement Fender-licensed bodies. Get an ash or alder or mahogany or rosewood, or...etc. one and get the thing routed so the electronics are in the right spot. I can't imagine any combo of woods, no matter how crappy they are, that can't be overcome at least to a certain degree by powerful active electronics like Series Alembic stuff. Regardless, no matter what you do, it WON'T sound much like a P-Bass with those electronics in it
 
Or maybe the electronics need to be properly set-up a la Ron W. the Wizard.
 
H*ll, what do I know, It's just my $0.02, LOL!

[dfung60]

I think the first step is to evaluate how it sound when not plugged in and especially to compare it to the unplugged sound of a bass that you do like the amplified sound of.  If you put your ear against it while playing and it sound sort of thin then, then spending more money on changing it is probably not going to be that productive.
 
For what it's worth (and it probably ain't worth much), I don't care much for these early 70's Fenders.  I remember them being really heavy (ash) and the thick finish.  They're worth a lot now because the older ones sell for so much more, but it seems to me that Fender had it nailed in the 60's and lost their mind from the 70's to the late 80's.  
 
To me, these 70's Fenders sound sort of thin and cold.  I'd be willing to bet that you Series electronics are telling you a truth that you'd rather not hear.  Changing pickups may shift the balance a little, but I doubt that it will be a transformation.  
 
I wouldn't be all that concerned about the pickup position or previous routing.  Part of the Alembic Sound is due to pickup positioning, but it's going to be dominated by the active electronics, thru-neck structure, and laminated neck.  Moving the pickups will make a change in the harmonic structure, but it will be relatively minor.  Since we fret the necks to play, this means that the optimum tone on your bass just happens to be at a different fret.
 
Routing a lot of wood out of a body can change the tone a lot too, but since you've always had this bass this way, that's a non-issue.  
 
I don't think you can do better than a set of Series electronics on a bass you love, and you're lucky to have them.  I have a lot of crazy basses, but one of the craziest is a custom Modulus 12-string bass (4x3 strings, a la Cheap Trick).  It's totally nuts - thru body 35 scale with a double thick quilt maple top with a lot of carving.  I had wanted to have Modulus build it with a set of Series electronics but that would have driven the crazy cost into the definitely insane range (the electronics set alone was more than most people would spend on a fine instrument).  I also thought about sacrificing one of my Series bass' electronics for the project but that was too painful to think about.  I still wonder what that would have sounded like...  
 
So, it seems to me that you better sell this bass of yours.  And when you're ready to do that, please don't forget to send me your address so I can haul it away for you.
 
David Fung

[jlpicard]

Well, It just goes to show you that the magic that is an Alembic is definitely more than the sum of it's parts. You can have great pickups or electronics but you need to get every aspect of the instrument right in order to have a successful design. IMHO, Alembic does this like no one else. Since you have a great deal of attachment to this bass, I would try to return it to it's original form as much as possible. The design works because Leo chose these particular elements to work together for a reason, just like Alembic has put certain elements together. Though worlds apart, both are successful designs, but not neccessarily interchangeable or to everyones' taste. Once you have accomplished that, sell the alembic pups'and put the money toward the real deal! I promise, once you play a real Series bass you'll never look back. And..you'll have the best of both worlds; the classic Fender tone and the entire tonal universe that is Alembic.  
Michael DeVincenzo

[kungfusheriff]

Jeff,
Nice to hear from you, but sorry you're having the same problem. You've got me backwards--buy a new amp first, sell her last. Sorry, dfung--I had the same thought, but J and his bass have been together a long time.

[dela217]

Harsh and nasal sounding?  I can't imagine.  One thing that could contribute to the nasal sound is the pickups could possibly be out of phase.  Does it sound nasaly with just one pickup selected?  It could be just a simple fix if that is the case!  I hope this helps, it did the trick for me on one of my Alembics.  For some reason when the pickups were made, the polarity was switched.  On the type of electronics in your bass, it is not easy to switch the polarity of a pickup without changing the connection on the PF-6 card.  But, when you do this, I think it may mess with the effectiveness of the hum cancelling system.  Just a thought.
 
Michael

[811952]

Ooh yeah..  One of the magnets might be reversed from the other, which would put the pickups out of phase.  If that's the case, then you'd need also to reverse the polarity of an appropriate section of the hum-canceller circuitry, right?
John

[jigme]

Guys, guys guys...I am overwhelmed with all the thoughtful replies and large amount of technical help. Wow! I can't respond to all of your great ideas so I'll summarize.  
 
1) You've confirmed my belief that the pups are worthy, and that through further tweaking or putting these in a new body I may get what I want.
 
2) After talking with M. Doaln, and reading your posts about the pups, I think there may be some electrical problems. I may send the bass to Michael
 
3) My current plans are to try a neck with t rosewood board, and send it to M. Dolan if neeeded.
 
My attachment to this bass is strong, maybe stupidly so. But, I think it is unique and still has potential that I haven't pulled out, even after all these years. I have never played a real Alembic for a true test drive, so I don't know what I'm missing. This may be as close as I ever get!!
 
If I sell the bass or the pups I'll post it here.
 
Thanks everyone. The technical knowledge here is very impressive!