Author Topic: Flitz Metal Polish  (Read 1069 times)

rockbassist

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Flitz Metal Polish
« on: February 17, 2006, 08:30:19 PM »
I was looking for a good metal polish to clean the hardware on my Epics. I saw Flitz Metal Polish in the Alembic store. A 1.76 oz tube is $12.95. I then went to the Flitz website and saw that I could buy the same size direct from them for less than $8. This made me wonder. I would assume that Alembic buys this for less than $8 (probably between $4-$6) so why the huge markup? Also, are the $115 straps really any better than the $30-40 straps at music stores and just how much does it really cost to make a bass? I love my Epics and I am not trying to sound cheap but if Alembic is marking up polish by more than 100% how much are they marking up other products?

crgaston

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 09:31:49 PM »
I imagine quite a bit. Why?  To stay in business, and to make a decent living for themselves.  
 
Alembic is now making about 1500 instruments a year.  If you figure they're grossing 3000.00 per instrument, on average (I have no clue, really, that's just a guess based on looking at the retail price list and figuring they gross about half of that, and guesstimating the percentage of Excels and Epics compared to everything else), their gross revenue from instruments would be about 4.5 million.  Then come corporate taxes.  Then overhead, like property tax, payroll tax, health insurance, retrement for their employees, liability insurance, utilities, phone bills, internet servers, building maintenance, equipment costs and maintenance.  Then come expendables, like sawblades, sandpaper, glue, and finish materials.  Then come materials, like exotic woods, fretwire, mother-of-pearl and abalone, silver, brass and gold.  Don't forget mil-spec pots, circuit buards, silver paint, wire, and solderless connectors for the electronics. Any screwups in the extremely demanding build process, and any materials they buy which don't meet thir quality standards, they have to swallow the cost. Then whatever is left, they have to split between at least 15 people, just looking at the folks on the website.  Now that I think about it, they would probably have to be pulling in a fair bit more than 4.5 million a year to keep the lights on.  
 
Remember that Alembic is a manufacturer, rather than a retailer.  Retail markup can be significantly less because of the amount of work involved.  How much effort does it take to unwrap a guitar and hang it on the wall until it sells compared to actually building the thing?  
Also, look at this link. http://www.moodyleather.com/strap4inch.aspx
 
115.00 doesn't sound so bad after that!
 
Let's face it; Alembic doesn't want to sell you Flitz.  If you want them to throw it in on a bigger order, they can do that, and you pay a few bucks for the convenience.  Alembic wants to sell you the best instrument it can build, and it will build that instrument exactly the way you want it.
 
In today's world, that costs  a lot of money.  
 
If Alembic ever decided to go public, which I hope they don't, I would invest in them in a heartbeat.  They offer a unique product and  amazing customer service, and have a rock solid market niche to boot.  The Wickershams have been doing this for most of their lives, out of love, and not for the money, and there will come a time when they won't be able to any more.  I for one am delighted to be contributing to their retirement and to their grandchildren's college fund, and to be rewarding them for a lifetime spent pursuing a dream.
 
Peace,
Charles

bsee

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2006, 10:42:29 PM »
Kevin-
 
I am speaking here as a customer with some business knowledge, not a representative of the company.  
 
With regard to the straps, they are great.  Functionally, they're probably not much better than a $50 Levy's strap, but I am quite happy to have mine at the price.  I think you can get one for a few bucks less direct from Moody and without the Alembic logo.
 
With regard to the basses, Alembic has historically made something on the order of 500-800 instruments a year (my estimate based upon the serial number progression).  The care that goes into every one of those instruments is above and beyond anyone else in the industry.  The wood and metalworking that they do is fabulous, and ask anyone who has an instrument with a custom inlay how they feel about it.  Since most of their instruments come out clear-coated you might overlook the finish work, but that would be a mistake with all the coats they apply to get that shiny and durable finish.  While there other builders out there that might match the construction quality, the one thing that sets Alembic apart is the electronics package.  There just isn't any competition.  
 
What sort of income do you think a company has to make to support 15-20 employees and just stay above water?  Don't forget their location and the associated cost of living.  There's no doubt that it feels expensive when you go to place an order for a new custom, but I think the numbers make sense when it comes to keeping the company healthy.
 
Think of it also as a basic supply and demand thing.  Custom instruments currently take months to get built because there is a continuous backlog at today's prices.  If all the prices dropped by even 10%, wouldn't you expect some increase in orders?  If so, who would fill those orders?  
 
As far as the metal polish goes, that's a service provided by Alembic more than it is an attempt to sell you something.  I suspect that even at a $6 profit per bottle, it's not a great return on their time investment compared to their core business.
 
-Bob
 
 
PS - Just read Charles' post after writing this and before saving.  Charles, where'd you get the idea that they are making 1500 instruments a year?    From the stolen list, I see that 12403 was a 2000 and 12679 was a 2001.  Last I heard, they were still short of 14000 when I ordered my bass on 12/31/2004. That would be about 1600 instruments over four years, even lower than my estimate above.

ajdover

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 05:18:43 AM »
Kevin,  
 
    Any product is only worth what someone will pay for it, and Flitz is no exception.  If $12.95 is too much for you and you can get it cheaper via the Flitz company's website, I say go for it.  As Charles notes, Alembic's not in business of selling Flitz or straps - they're here to sell what I consider the finest basses and guitars on the planet, cost be damned.
 
    To me, you're buying more than an instrument when you're buying an Alembic.  Without waxing too philosophic here, I submit that you're buying into the idea of excellence.  One look at any Alembic instrument, from the lowest model to the highest in terms of cost, tells the potential customer that at least in terms of craftsmanship, no corners are cut, and no detail is too small.  I can say this because I own two Essences, one a '91 and one a '92, as well as an '03 Spyder, an '03 Europa, and an '04 Dragon's Wing.  I've also seen older Alembics elsewhere, to include an '81 Series 1 Standard Point while I was in Korea.  In every case the quality was the same - without peer.  I also own four Fenders - a '73 Jazz, a '76 Precision, an '05 Jazz Bass Deluxe MIA, and an MIJ Jazz ('94).  I can say confidently that the quality varies from bass to bass.  Same goes for the other 10 or so instruments from other manufacturers that I have (Rickenbacker, Peavey, Godin, Musicman, Ovation, Gibson).  Not so with Alembic.  
 
While mass produced instruments have come a long way in terms of quality, Alembic's quality has always been what it is today - superlative.  Whether someone likes the Alembic sound, look, and feel is a purely subjective thing, but there is no denying what I consider unparalleled quality and attention to detail.  I can't say that about Fender, Gibson, Musicman etc. to the same level of fidelity.  They make fine instruments, but their quality control and attention to detail in my experience is not remotely close to the level of Alembic, nor should they be for the price.  Again, you get what you pay for, and it's only worth it if you're willing to pay it.
 
     You're also buying into something that sadly is fading from the American landscape - that of the family owned business.  You need only look around at the plethora of chain stores, restaurants, Walmarts, etc. to see this.  These corporate entities offer the same things everywhere, and usually at the same price.  There is nothing remarkable or unique about them, nothing to make the dining, shopping, or purchasing unique or worth remembering.  It's just another restaurant, store, etc.  When I order a custom from Alembic, or buy a used piece, I feel I'm getting something unique, something made with care by people who put their souls into the contstruction of an instrument rather than a faceless corporation whose sole concern seems to be the bottom line.  In short, if you gave me a choice of one Alembic vs. 10 Fenders, I'd go with the Alembic every time.  I can buy a Fender anytime and it will be the same everytime (though quality won't be the same in my experience).  With the exception of their quality construction and materials, I can't say that with Alembic, but that's what's attractive to me - it is different, it is unique, and in the case of a custom, it's made only for me to my specifications.  Sure, you can order a custom shop Fender, Gibson, etc., but it will be a modification (usually) to an existing model rather than something made wholly for you.  If you look at the COM thread, you will see numerous examples of instruments made wholly to a customer's wishes.  The Alembird comes to mind, as does a doubleneck there, and this month's COM.  
 
     The Moody Straps are worth every penny IMHO.  A Guitar Center bought strap doesn't even come close IMHO.  I have one from Alembic and one I bought off Talkbass.  They both cost roughly the same, so I suspect that Alembic is making as least as much on these straps as Talkbass is.
 
     Bottom line is you should pay what you're comfortable paying, regardless of make or manufacturer.  If you think Alembic charges too much, you can look for a used piece or not buy at all and choose another marque.  In the end, only you can determine whether the expense justifies the cash outlay.
 
Alan
 
(Edited spelling of member's name)
 
(Message edited by davehouck on February 18, 2006)

richbass939

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 10:31:27 AM »
As usual, club members have made very good (if differing) points.  I think we all agree that there is nothing cheap about Alembics.  They are not inexpensive either.  I have no idea what Alembic's profit margin is.  I think that if a person or family creates and maintains something superlative they deserve to make money from it even if it is more than they need to keep the doors open.  
Yes, the Wickershams live and run a business in an expensive part of the country.  It appears they like it there.  I am happy that they are able to live where they want to live.  They offer something unique (IMHO) to the music world and I'm happy they have reaped some financial reward for their commitment and efforts.  I would rather that they have the things that make them happy than to cut back on what they want personally so that they can offer instruments for a few hundred dollars less.
As far as Alembic going public, I would love to see it happen to a degree.  If you guys ever want to sell company stock (I hope the Wickershams read this) I know a lot of us would jump at the chance.  I would!  I'm sure none of us would want half or more of the voting shares to be outside the family but I would love to see a minority interest offered to investors.
As far as how Alembic is doing business, I say keep on keeping on.  I could find less expensive instruments that would probably play and sound fine.  But as I get on in life I've found that I want a few things that I feel are the best.  I have loved playing music for over forty years.  I enjoy it more than ever since I bought my Alembics.  
Rich

crgaston

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2006, 01:09:58 PM »
Bob, not sure where I got that number, but I think I remember reading or deducing that that's what they're up to over the past year or two.  I could easily be wrong.

dejan

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2006, 01:52:58 PM »
Hi,I play electric bass for livin',and I've joined this club from just a month.I think that Alembic basses are fantastic instruments but readin' your threads I evinced that must of you don't play for livin' but for hobby(and it's good)!I read a lot of discussions about neck laminates,gold hardware,triple omega etc.but music is another thing.I see Alembic instruments only in seventies photos and in tribute band for Who or Grateful Dead.This is OK,great bands and great music but we are in 2006!I hope that in the future Alembic and Alembicians will valute more music than aesthetic,because one thing is to be a rich collector other thing is to play bass and make music(not important if for hobby or for job).When Stanley played Journey To Love Alembic was an innovative instrument,and the story must go on!It's hard for me to write this post,but I hate instruments like Fodera and Sadowsky for their incredible price without reason,and I love Alembic but it's important to have respect for money and for young musicians that make great sacrifice to buy a good instrument.... to play it and not to pay too money to polish it.Love,Davide!
 
(Message edited by dejan on February 18, 2006)

hb3

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2006, 04:30:39 PM »
and there you have it!

bigredbass

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2006, 05:42:07 PM »
I'll say what I always say about this and previous, similar discussions:  Their Business is none of my business.  I appreciate ALEMBIC for what it is, admire the way the Wickershams and their family do their business, and COULD NOT AGREE MORE how wonderful it is to do business with a FAMILY business, instead of just one more faceless organization that's worried about their stock performance at the expense of everything  (even their customers and employees)else.  Same thing with Allison @ Moody.  I would MUCH rather know who's getting my money, and know I was helping build a small business run by VERY deserving friends.  Who gets your money when you buy from Guitar Center?
 
How many of us here came to ALEMBIC first after buying used, and were treated like we bought six Series Twos brand new?  So I'm just tickled with whatever they want to charge me, because I'm spending money with friends.  
 
These instruments are the best in the world.  That's never cheap.  But for the magic they provide in my life, I can't put a price on that.
 
J o e y

peever

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2006, 06:12:53 PM »
the price of the instument is mainly based on the labor involved. For example a bass or guitar with many laminations will cost more to do because theres alot more labour involved.
But you cant blame them for trying to make money.

ajdover

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2006, 10:31:02 PM »
Hi,I play electric bass for livin',and I've joined this club from just a month.I think that Alembic basses are fantastic instruments but readin' your threads I evinced that must of you don't play for livin' but for hobby(and it's good)!I read a lot of discussions about neck laminates,gold hardware,triple omega etc.but music is another thing.I see Alembic instruments only in seventies photos and in tribute band for Who or Grateful Dead.This is OK,great bands and great music but we are in 2006!I hope that in the future Alembic and Alembicians will valute more music than aesthetic,because one thing is to be a rich collector other thing is to play bass and make music(not important if for hobby or for job).When Stanley played Journey To Love Alembic was an innovative instrument,and the story must go on!It's hard for me to write this post,but I hate instruments like Fodera and Sadowsky for their incredible price without reason,and I love Alembic but it's important to have respect for money and for young musicians that make great sacrifice to buy a good instrument.... to play it and not to pay too money to polish it.Love,Davide!
 
All excellent points.   I am one of the hobbyists you refer to, and you're right, it's all good.  I would submit, though, it's because we want to bring pleasure to ourselves and others through music that we choose Alembic, not because we're collectors, have the money, etc.  I think a lot of us discuss hardware, electronics, etc. because that's part of the fun of having something built just for oneself.  I know it is for me! :-)  
 
When I was younger there was no way I could afford a new Alembic.  Hell, I probably couldn't have afforded a used Alembic!  That, however, didn't stop me from wanting one.
 
Flash forward to 2003.  I get my first Alembic, an '84 Spoiler-Exploiter.  I am hooked, I am in totally.  It became (and still is) somewhat of an addiction, though a healthy one at that (well, not on my pocketbook, but that's another story entirely!).  
 
If I were playing for a living, I'd pick the tool that was right for the job.  I own Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Musicman, Peavey, Pedulla, Godin, Ovation, and Alembic basses.  All have their strengths and weaknesses.  However, of all those instruments, none has the versatility of an Alembic IMHO.  Of course, many factors will go into the choice of a professional regarding which instrument he chooses, none the least of which is ease of use in a recording or live situation, requirements of engineers, mixers, type of music being played, desired tone, etc.  I've done the same thing myself, and I don't earn my living playing bass.
 
I have and do use all my Alembics on gigs when I'm able to do so.  I don't keep them in the closet or under the bed.  They are a tool, albeit a finely crafted tool.  Do I take more care with them than I do my other basses?  Of course I do given their expense.  Only natural I think.  But this doesn't stop me from using them to effect their stated purpose - to make music.  Same goes for my other basses.  They're there to be played, not hung on a wall and worshipped.
 
As I noted above, any instrument is only worth what one is willing to pay for it.  In my view an Alembic is for any number of reasons.  Sadowskys aren't to me, but they are for others.  Same goes for Fodera and any other number of marques.  It's cliche, but truly this is a case of to each his own.
 
Me?  I'm going to continue to patronize the Wickershams and their wonderful company as long as I play bass because I like them and they're worth it to me.  Their instruments reach me in a way no other instrument does (with the possible exception of my '73 Jazz - most comfortable instrument I've ever strapped on).    
 
I hope to hear more from you in the Club here on your perspectives as a working professional bassist.  I'm sure there's a lot we all can learn from you.
 
Alan

dejan

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2006, 01:29:34 AM »
Hi Alan,I appreciate and condivide your post,except the last phrase!I don't want to teach nothing,my last post was only a way to start a discussion about exagerate cost of some musical instruments and accessories,sorry if you have interpretated it like alesson of life,absolutely not!I have much respect for everyone here in the forum and I like Wickersham's work,this is the cause I em here!But I think that sometime is necessary to provocate,logically with maximum respect to you!So I think that you can learn a lot from me like from evryone in the Club!Bye

ajdover

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2006, 02:11:47 AM »
Davide,
 
    No worries here.  It's all good.  I know no one's lecturing anyone else here, and my post was not meant in that vein.  Again, no worries.  I look forward to more of your posts!
 
Alan

zn_bassman

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2006, 03:40:35 AM »
Alan, there's no shortage of family businesses where you are now.  ;-)

dejan

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Flitz Metal Polish
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2006, 04:02:14 AM »
No problem Alan,I like this forum because it's important to hear your opinions,and my point of view can be no correct!So,if you need something from Italy or from me don't have problem to call me!I work in Milano but I came from Sardinia and if you want,you're welcome to my house for summer holidays.Bye and sorry for my English! This is a picture of the sea near to my home!  

 
(Message edited by davehouck on February 19, 2006)