Author Topic: Field Recorders (Read 461 times)

spose · « **on:** February 17, 2006, 07:28:11 AM »

hi!
does anyone use a field recorder to record gigs or rehearsals?

I just love the looks of the new Sony PCM D1 and just had to share

I don't have one, but it's giving me serious G.A.S.!!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PCMD1/

spose · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2006, 07:30:08 AM »

looking at this one too.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html

bsee · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:08:49 AM »

oops - double post... sorry

(Message edited by bsee on February 17, 2006)

bsee · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:11:47 AM »

Those things seem more geared toward recording other peoples gigs from the audience than your own stuff. I could see you using one for rehearsals, but where would you put it to record gigs? Anyplace on stage is likely to give you an unbalanced mix, so you'd probably want to get it out in the crowd.

I suppose there are several levels of recording quality that you can aim for. The highest is a single track for each instrument and vocal. That would be great for rehearsals and to make demos, but it's more than I want to deal with at gigs. If I were in a band that mics up everything and could get this level of recording for free, that would be a great option.

The lowest would be a straight stereo recording from a device like those you are looking at. They are certainly easy to set up and can give you a reasonable recording, but they have a couple problems. They can only sit in one place, so they get the mix at that spot, and many units won't capture the bass very well (important to us Alembicians). The latter is not a problem I would expect from the $2K Sony unit, but is common for the average stereo recorder. In addition to ease of use, this solution also has the benefit of not requiring mixdown.

I like to compromise and record four tracks. I take one feed from the mixing board that has the vocals way on top, but bleeds through all the instruments. I hang a couple of mics at different spots on the stage to feature the guitars and drums. Finally, I take a direct feed from my amp to isolate the bass. To me, this is the best compromise of effort/hassle vs. quality result. It does require a bit of mixdown, but not much more effort than it would take to break the recording into individual tracks. There was a recent discussion of hardware to do this here.

If you decide to go stereo, there are a few more options beyond what you posted. Some HD MP3 players are now able to make a good stereo recording, including the latest iPod. Add a quality stereo microphone and you're ready to go.

One final thing to consider is the purpose for your recording. Any option should do well enough to let you critique your performance, but it may be hit or miss to come up with recordings that you would use as demos or publish on a band website. I think the four track will give you a better hit rate for recordings worthy of public use.

As usual, just my opinion, and worth every penny you paid for it.

Good luck!

dadabass2001 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2006, 11:37:46 AM »

I use an Edirol R-1 portable stereo recorder with an AKG stereo mic. It's similar to the Microtrack 2496 above but a little bit larger (about the size of a double VHS case) with a mini stereo plug for mic-in and AC/battery operation (AAx2).

Bob's comments are pretty close - It's an adventure in audio for each recording. I put the mic on top of my system and wind up with a bass heavy but usable for review air-check of the show. Occasionally (when we have a secure table up front in the audience) I set the system up out front for a more accurate rendition of the performance.
Mike

rockbassist · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2006, 08:11:07 PM »

I just bring my laptop loaded with Sonar Cakewalk and a Tascam US-122 interface. I run a couple of mics to pick up the raw sound and then remix, eq and run effects when I get home. I have made several decent quality live demos this way.

gbarchus · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2006, 02:44:05 AM »

I have a Sony MZ R900 MD (MiniDisc) digital recorder that I sit on top of my amp and it gives a pretty accurate picture of what I'm hearing on stage. I've had friends put it at a table in front of the band to find out how we sound. It's pretty good feedback but not a potential CD. I think it was about $300.

http://www.minidisc.org/brian_youn/sony_mzr900.html

laytonco · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2006, 06:00:35 AM »

I use the Sony Minidisc as well, but we plug it into the soundboard and we get HI-Def CD quality recordings out of it. I've tried using the little mic at rehearsals but it cannot handle any loud volumes. It does work well when we're doing acoustic. But, when plugged into the soundboard, it is truly amazing. I paid aroud $450 for mine.

jazzyvee · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2006, 11:48:41 AM »

I just take my ipod with a belkin mic attachment. It's not fantastic quality but allows me an easy way of listening to the arrangements.
Jazzyvee

pace · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2006, 01:57:12 PM »

I bring my Sony D8 to gigs where there isnt a house system / soundman. The places we've been playing usually have a CD-R in their rack.

Believe it or not, our guitarist does rehearsals with a Fisher-Price cassette recorder!

matthew90046 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2006, 09:25:32 PM »

I use a Sony Minidisc with a Rode NT4 stereo mic. To avoid preamp distortion I use a 40dB pad in the line. It captures a good live recording. I bring it to gigs and place it close to a friend or the sound guy, then hope it is there after the show.

David Houck · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2006, 09:35:33 AM »

I've just reread this thread and the previous thread here. Lots of helpful comments. Here's what I'm thinking.

I want to record our shows. My first goal is to be able to critique the performance. Secondary benefits would be demo CD's and website publishing, and recording rehearsals.

As we don't have vocals and mostly play small venues, we don't carry a mixing board; so the recording would be via mics.

I want to spend as little time as possible setting up. I'm thinking using one stereo mic or two mics and placing the recorder in the middle front of the stage.

And I don't want to do any mix down. At most I'm thinking downloading wav files via USB to a PC for purposes of burning a CD or uploading to a website.

I want to record the entire show - and we generally don't take breaks; so I'm thinking three to four hours.

Oh, and I want to spend as little money as possible!

And of course the bass response is important!

I looked at the Edirol. Some mixed reviews. And by the time you purchase a large enough flash card, it looks to be a sizable cash outlay.

The Sony site shows two current models of minidisc; MZ-RH910and MZ-RH10. I can't tell what the difference between the models is, other than one lists for $200 and the other $300. A minidisc holds 1GB. Several of you have said that you record your shows with a Sony minidisc. How much can you record on a single 1GB minidisc?

Minidiscs seem to have the additional advantage of being their own archives.

Comments; suggestions?

dadabass2001 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2006, 10:22:21 AM »

Hi Dave,
I recorded via minidisc for about 5 years before I switched last year to the Edirol. I purchased a Sony MZ-R37 portable recorder from Best Buy and used it weekly, then a second MZ-R37 about two years later (the first was suffering dropouts). I also purchased two different Sony home units and started to hit compatibility issues recording portable and dubbing from my home units via optical TOSlink to Phillips CD recorder.

Minidisc uses it's own proprietary ATASC (IIRC) encoding (remember Sony Betamax), whereas the Edirol will record in multiple mp3 or WAV formats(i.e. 16 or 24 bit). WAV 16 bit on a 1 gig flash card yields 1 1/2 hours straight recording with no moving parts. I bought two 1 gig flash cards off PC Warehouse for significantly less than Best Buy / Circuit City prices. The Edirol seems to inhale AA batteries, but I always use the supplied AC adaptor and set the sytem on top of my amp (no vibration drawbacks because no moving parts).
The Sony portables had the choice of either AGC or manual level without accurate metering. The Edirol has manual level with a larger LCD level indicator and switchable limiting. A USB flashcard reader was maybe $30 at Best Buy, or you can plug the Edirol into a USB cord and access it directly from your computer (I use a Mac). A built in audio editing program (for editing chitchat and normalizing) and CD burner completes the picture. I recorded last Saturdays Noah Gabriel /Pickled BEATS performance and by 5pm Sunday I had the whole show edited on my hard drive and had burned a 2 CD copy (I only got two sets because I forgot to turn on my AKG Stereo condenser mic-DOH!) for review purposes.

Bottom line, over 5 years I spent close to $2000 on minidisc units that are marginal for field work and no longer current to minidisc technology and under $600 for a complete system that appears to be performing very well.
YRMV
Mike

newuser · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2006, 11:02:29 AM »

Taperssection.com and minidisc.org have reviews and info.

The 910 comes with a 900mAh battery and the MZ-RH10 comes with a 1450mAh battery and has a backlight.

The MZ-RH10 has an small external AA Dry Battery Case that you can connect to the recorder.

IIRC they are not Mac compatible (via USB-the software is PC only, though if you have a intel mac, fresh WinXP SP2 disc and BootCamp it might work), don't have a line out (only headphones out), and have some kind of DRM protection (I think only for mp3 though).

Also pretty sure that a WAVE (or AIFF) is consistent across platforms, so where 24 bit/44.1kHz on a 2GB card = 125 minutes, a minidisk at the same rate will get you 62.5 minutes on 1GB of storage. By the time you downsample enough to fit 180 or 240 minutes you're down to mp3 @ 320k. Mp3 is great for the web, but for RedBook audio (audio cds), you'll have to convert to WAVE/AIFF on the computer.

I'm using an AT-822 (stereo mic about $250) into a Edirol R-1 ($425) with a Sandisk 60x 4GB Flash card (about $180 @ TigerDirect.com).

The Edirol R-1 has a 2GB/2 hour storage limit bug: You have to start a new file at that point. It also can't monitor levels while recording (I put it in standby, do a level check or just start it during the first tune after setting the levels). This bugs me, but as my old and beloved Sony Walkman Pro tape recorder took one too many falls off a music stand, I had to go with what was available.

On a Mac the R-1 is usb plug and play, I use BIAS Peak LE when editing is needed (eg: too lazy to start and stop recording between tunes).

Their new model is the R-9, which _can_ monitor while recording, no reviewer verified info on file size/time limits yet and it uses a SD Card (supports 64 MB?2 GB), they claim 110 minutes @ 24/48, 180 @ 16/44.1 and 797 @ mp3 320k. Some may have shipped but most retailers are now saying June delivery.

Even w/o a break in a 3-4 hour set you should be able to find time to start a new file (R-1) or swap the memory card (R-9), at the 2 hour mark.

Everything I've read says to stay away from the M-Audio MT.

Good luck and let us know what you go with!

dnburgess · « **Reply #14 on:** April 15, 2006, 02:45:17 PM »

Dave

I was looking at the Edirol as a way to remotely record Basscast shows. Then Marantz brought out the PMD660 which has had fantastic reviews. Have you looked at it?

You could record your whole set uncompressed onto a single 4G compact flash card.

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=3629&CatID=19&SubCatID=180