Relative value of different models?

[csissom]

I am in the market for a used Alembic bass, and I am trying to figure out the relative value of different models, not actual prices of specific instruments, but just in general, which models are more or less expensive than others.
 
I see most of the models on the price list Alembic publishes on the web site, summarized here:
 
Least expensive - Excel/Epic/Orion
A bit more expensive - Essence
Even more expensive - Rogue
Just plain expensive - Signature Standard
Quite expensive - Europa
Very expensive - Signature Deluxe
Extremely expensive - Series I
Insanely expensive - Series II
 
Now, my question is, where do all the discontinued and other models not on the current price list fall in this hierarchy?
 
Specifically, the Distillate, Elan, Persuader and Spoiler?
 
Any help in putting together this puzzle would be much appreciated.
 
Thanks!
Curt

[bob]

I can't really help with the pricing, but just to advance the discussion - should we place the discontinued models in the list, as if they were being made new today?
 
Or are you more interested in used prices for all, which gets quite a bit more complicated, factoring in age, wear, custom options, etc.? If so, then you might suggest some guidelines, such as 5-10 years old with slight, but not excessive wear, ignoring any significant upgrades such as LEDs, and so forth.

[csissom]

Yes, I'm talking about used basses, that's why I'm interested in the discontinued models.
 
But no, I'm not asking for specific prices.  I know those vary widely with age, wear, custom options, etc.  But assuming those are all equal, what are the relative values of the different models.
 
For instance, is a Distillate one of the least expensive like an Excel, or is quite expensive like a Europa, or what?  Where does it match up in the spectrum of models?  See what I mean?

[csissom]

But if you want to take a shot at actual fair prices for each model, that would be cool too.
 
If so, your guidelines sound pretty good.  Let's say, a standard model with no significant upgrades, 4 string, 10 or so years old, slight but not excessive wear, what would be your guess at reasonable prices for each model?

[ajdover]

Curt,
 
     Based on what I've seen on Ebay, I'd suggest the following:
 
Excel/Epic/Orion - $900-$1500
Essence - $1300-$1500
Rogue - $1500-$2000
Europa (haven't seen one on ebay) - $2500-3000
Signature Standard - $2500
Signature Deluxe - $2500-$3000
Series I - $2500-$4000
Series II - $4000 and up, depending on age
 
These, of course, are only estimates.  The price ranges will vary widely.  If they have options, then things change as well.
 
I purchased both my Essences between $1100-$1300, so I can reliably say that you can get one of those if you desire for that amount (mine are stock without any options, e.g., LEDs, inlays, etc.).
 
Hope this helps,
 
Alan

[csissom]

Thanks Alan!  That is indeed helpful.
 
Now, where would you put the Distillate, Elan, Persuader and Spoiler on that scale?
 
I'm especially interested in where the Distillate fits in, since there is one on eBay right now that looks interesting.
 
Thanks again,
Curt

[adriaan]

First factor is set-neck v. neck-through.
The next factors are electronics and neck laminates.
Finally, Series instruments usually command higher prices.
Other than that, there's no accounting for lustworthiness!
 
There is no such thing as a discontinued model at Alembic. The basic construction features (aside from the above-mentioned factors) are much the same between models, and the distinctions rely mostly on body shape and electronics package.
 
Plus they'll build you an Elan, Distillate, Spoiler or Persuader if you ask them to. I'm pretty sure if you ask them for an Essence in the original shape (slightly longer body) then they will do that for you.

[the_8_string_king]

Of the 4 models you've named, the 2 most expensive would tend to be the Distillate and the Elan -with qualifications.
 
First -in case you don't know- the Distillate has electronics similar to the current Europa/Rogue package -with the main difference being that they have a pickup selector instead of the pan/balance switch.  Nonetheless, with the 6 controls, it's probably the most versatile of the 4 models you've named.  However, there are some Distillates floating around with only 1 pickup, and these are usually less desirable, and therefore should tend to command lower prices.
 
When Elans were discontinued, they had the next most versatile electronics of the models you've named: master volume, balance, filter & 2 position Q switch; this is superior to both the Spoiler electronics (which are the same except they have the less versatile pickup selector instead of the pan/balance) and the Persuader electronics (which have individual volumes and 1 filter but lack a Q switch).
 
However, some of the earlier Elans apparently have Persuader electronics (two volumes instead of 1 volume & a balance, and NO Q switch).
 
These are arguably less desirable and should tend to sell for less.
 
Spoilers and Persuaders... it's a toss up.  With Spoilers you can turn the Q on/off, but Persuaders offer better mixing of the sound -with the individual volumes.
 
Anyway, all things being equal, Distillates and newer model Elans should tend to be the more expensive, older model Elans, Persuaders, and Spoilers should tend to be less expensive.

[csissom]

Adriaan,
 
Those are some good points.
 
Looking at the specs on the website, the Excel, Epic and Orion have set-necks, and all the other models have neck-through.  So that seems to mark the low end (if Alembic can be said to have a low end).  Looking at the showcase section, the Distillate, Elan, Persuader and Spoiler all look like neck-through, so that definitely puts them out of the low end, right?
 
As for electronics, to be honest, the range of different options has me somewhat bewildered at the moment.  I'll have to think about that one some more.
 
Neck laminates?  Looking at the specs, it seems that all models from Excel through Signature Standard have walnut veneers, while everything from Europa to Series II has purple heart veneers.  That seems to break the list roughly in half.  But I am not sure which the Elan, Persuader or Spoiler have.  However, the Distillate on eBay claims to have purple heart, so that would seem to put it on the upper half of the list?
 
And yes, I have caught on to the fact that Series basses are the most expensive, but why?  What is it they have that the others don't?  Better electronics?  Or something else?  It might be a dumb newbie question, but there it is.
 
Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts.
 
Curt

[csissom]

8 String King,
 
No, I did not know anything about the Distillate electronics, or any of the others either, so your information was extremely useful.  
 
Thank you!
Curt

[csissom]

More about neck laminates.
 
Browsing through the basses pictured and described on the forum here, the Distillates seem to consistently all have purple heart laminates in the necks.
 
The Elan, Persuader and Spoilers seem to mostly have no laminates in the necks at all.  They look to be just three pieces of maple with nothing in between.  A few of them have laminates and when they do, they appear to all be purple heart.  Does this sound right?  If so, where does that put them on the scale?  Lower part of the middle?  I assume the ones with laminates are more desirable than those without.  Is that right?
 
Do these neck laminates have any significant effect on the tone, etc?  Or are they mostly cosmetic?

[ajdover]

Curt,
 
   I own five Alembics - two Essences, a Dragon's Wing, a Spyder, and a Europa.  The Essences both have pure maple necks, While the others have maple-purpleheart lams.  In terms of the tone, I find purely maple necks to be very bright on a neck through bass, and the maple-purpleheart lams slightly less so.  I've been told that ebony lams have a big effect on tone, but since I've never played an instrument with that set up I can't comment.  
 
I think the electronics have as much or more of an effect on the tone.  Factor in your playing style, fingers vs. pick, etc., and there are any number of things which effect tone.
 
Really, you can't go wrong with any model Alembic if you want one - all depends on what you're looking for.  I find that all my basses can get the Alembic tone, while others can achieve more varied tones (those with Q switch).  My custom Entwistle Replica will have Series II electronics, which feature single coil pick ups with a humcanceller and continuously variable Q-switches, so that set up will get very different tones than say, my Essences do.
 
Hope this helps,
 
Alan

[bigredbass]

CS, the Series basses are the height of ALEMBIC due to their pickups/electronics package:  Offboard power supply, the single coil pickups with the humcanceller (what looks like a middle pickup) and the QSwitches.  This offers a range of tone unapproachable by anything else on the market, and is the core of the ALEMBIC legend.
Naturally, these are NOT put in plain looking basses, so they will always be the most expensive.  
 
BUT, these can be had generally in pretty good shape used in a $3-4000 as the Major pointed out above.
 
For me, the classic ALEMBIC recipe is a neckthru with purpleheart laminates, ebony fingerboard, and a medium weight wood body wing with a contrasting top.  This could be any of the models.  
 
But remember this is hardly Fender:  You could look at twenty used Spoilers and see a great range of shapes and features:  Some would be the traditional Spoiler double cutaway, but in different scale lengths, some would be different body shapes, etc.  These vary a LOT more than looking at twenty used PBasses.
 
So you really have to think about what you need, and begin looking at what will and won't work for you.  You can save a fortune on used ones.
I keep watching out for a Series One five-string
(why are they ALWAYS fours?) in the used market.
 
You could have a new one built for less $$ than you think if you're careful with the options on a month when their Monthly Special includes something special you can't live without.
 
J o e y

[longhorncat]

The last Distillate on eBay went for $1900.  The one currently listed is a nicer wood and in better condition.
 
Spoiler's have been going around $1500 and Persuader are up to $1200.

[olieoliver]

Hey Curt, I can't offer much advice on the price ranges but I checked out your bands web site. Very nice. The Lone Star Country Club I saw in the photos, is that the one in Coppel? I used to play the Lone Star at its original location on Belt Line Rd back in the 80's. Was always a blast!